Not liking the reports coming out from Athens

[Guest]

George Gillet said he expected that many and that our fans were entrepeneurial and he was sure they'd get in. Maybe he's stupid too eh fredo.

Yes he sure is if he ever said that, or he bloody knows **** all of it all. Btw, he's one of those 'corporate ******s' as you labelled them.

If you think its UEFA's right to call the shots, even when in blatant contempt of the supporters, then there's little for us to discuss here.

Yep, I think it's a dead end on that issue, because you're still talking out of your anger instead of using your head.

[disco]

i havent backed up uefa, i said a few fans, you are claiming thousands. disco stop making me out to be some ****, i can do that myself. im getting sick of you doing it

I haven't claimed thousands

All I said is your description of events matches Uefa's descriptions of events - I only mentioned it because Alun wanted to hear other views first before believing Uefa.

Look, we disagree with what's 'fair' or not and having a discussion about it, but you're right I shouldn't make sarky comments just because I disagree with you

[sean_lfc]

milan would have sent back 10.000

I tend to agree. What many fail to see is that we're an exceptional club with exceptional fans which demands an exceptional ticketing policy. There aren't many clubs which have such a dedicated fan base as ours and this demands an exceptional way of dealing with the 'problem'.

[desertscouser]

The thing which led to it initially was the allocation and UEFA are at fault for that.

But seriously mate, knowing the possible repercussions and danger for fellow fans, you cant justify fans trying to force their way in, no matter HOW much they may have spent.

What's more valuable, their £1000 or the safety/lives of human beings?

F*ck the £1000 FFS.

I hear you but you can't always think rationally when you feel that you have been treated unjustly.

[Revo]

The thing which led to it initially was the allocation and UEFA are at fault for that.

But seriously mate, knowing the possible repercussions and danger for fellow fans, you cant justify fans trying to force their way in, no matter HOW much they may have spent.

What's more valuable, their £1000 or the safety/lives of human beings?

F*ck the £1000 FFS.

DJ you were like a ****ing lunatic here last week scratching for tickets and fair play to you, had you been in that situation looking for a ticket yesterday and that situation was presented to you, are you telling me you would not have gone in the ground

[alunevans]

Alun,

good point. however i have just had a thought this may be wrong but bear with me

we know there are 17000 tickets for LC fans its not enough. many more go to athens this creates a black market for tickets. now yes uefa didnt issue enough tickets but still would you go to the petrol station if you knew all the petrol was sold?

so in some ways is it our own fault by creating the demand for the touts. if we all accepted that there are not enough tickets and didnt go then there would not have been a problem

not sure about that myself but i think its a point worth discussing

technically true, but if the street was lined with people who HAD petrol who were selling it on the black market, you'd still go near to the petrol station.

technically if we all said **** you UEFA, have an empty stadium and be a laughing stock then all might be solved.

but thats a bit like protesting a high season ticket price rise by not paying it. ultimately, you want to see your team so you take it on the chin and go to a tout.

it just shows how exploited we are. what you're calling for is a "consumer boycott" and you may well be right but just because people aren't ready to do that doesn't make them to blame.

[Craig_H]

Surely the point is to limit the black market. That has to be UEFA's job. They do that by giving as many tickets as humanly possible to the supporters of the teams in the competition, and as few as possible to sources that would become touts.

I reckon about 10 or 11 thousand of our 50,000 paid face value for their tickets due to the way they were allocated.

A black market with 40,000 people desperate for a ticket is a far bigger problem than a black market with 5 or 10 thousand seeking a ticket.

Its just silly to say this is a problem, so we won't care if that problem is limited or maximised.

If the problem isn't something that can be gotten around completely, one has to limit it as much as possible - not deliberately exacerbate it.

I totally agree mate. I'm just saying that the same thing would've happened, but to a lesser extent, if UEFA had allocated fairly.

Put it another way - if UEFA had given us the maximum that they realistically could (Let's even say 30k) and 30k had legitimately got in.

The remaining 20k or so would've still contained some who would've tried to force their way in. In this example, UEFA have done all they could and would've been blameless, yet the danger would still have existed.

In that instance whose fault is it? Not UEFA's.

Those who did that would've done so regardless, because they simply dont care about anyone but themselves. And forgetting the wrongs of UEFA, which i agree on, that cant be excused mate.

[Revo]

I haven't claimed thousands

All I said is your description of events matches Uefa's descriptions of events - I only mentioned it because Alun wanted to hear other views first before believing Uefa.

Look, we disagree with what's 'fair' or not and having a discussion about it, but you're right I shouldn't make sarky comments just because I disagree with you

apology accepted

[disco]

DJ you were like a ****ing lunatic here last week scratching for tickets and fair play to you, had you been in that situation looking for a ticket yesterday and that situation was presented to you, are you telling me you would not have gone in the ground

The "situation" only presented itself because they were there in the first place (without tickets) though and causing a crush.

[disco]

apology accepted

[Revo]

I totally agree mate. I'm just saying that the same thing would've happened, but to a lesser extent, if UEFA had allocated fairly.

Put it another way - if UEFA had given us the maximum that they realistically could (Let's even say 30k) and 30k had legitimately got in.

The remaining 20k or so would've still contained some who would've tried to force their way in. In this example, UEFA have done all they could and would've been blameless, yet the danger would still have existed.

In that instance whose fault is it? Not UEFA's.

Those who did that would've done so regardless, because they simply dont care about anyone but themselves. And forgetting the wrongs of UEFA, which i agree on, that cant be excused mate.

there was never 50.000 liverpool fans in athens, 30.000 max

[Bob]

Actually, thankfully I missed most of the chaos as a few of us decided to get into the stadium as soon as possible after witnessing the sheer volume of Liverpool fans in the stadium grounds. It's my mates who wanted that extra drink who had to endure most of the crap.

The thing is though, I can't really condone a Liverpool fan trying to get in after unknowingly buying a forgery. Imagine spending 500 quid to get to Athens and another 500 -1000 quid buying a ticket and it turns out to be a forgery? 9 times out of 10 you'd be so devastated and desperate that you would try and con your way in.

Whichever way you look at it, the real losers were the fans and the people to blame are UEFA. a 17000 ticket allocation is a disgrace and a gross misjudgement of the eventual reality of the situation. The trouble last night was caused by their ticketing policy and I hope they learn from their mistakes in the future, or else one day it will all turn very nasty.

Pretty much sums this whole grim thread up for me. Well put.

[Craig_H]

DJ you were like a ****ing lunatic here last week scratching for tickets and fair play to you, had you been in that situation looking for a ticket yesterday and that situation was presented to you, are you telling me you would not have gone in the ground

I know i was mate and yes i was desperate.

But whether you believe me or not, i would NOT have tried to force my way in without a ticket, i can promise you that. I dont think anyone should do that because, as radical as it might sound, it COULD possibly lead to something of the seriousness of Hillsborough happening again and no matter how small the chances of that might be, the risk shouldnt ever be taken.

Surely you agree mate??

[alunevans]

I agree.

But realistically, they could only have given each club a max of 25k or so.

In which case, we'd still have had 25k without tickets.

As i say, whatever they do, they'll never be able to satisfy the demand.

Why only 25k? Where do the other 13k go to?

Besides, Milan sent a load of their 17k back so why would they need 25k?

I don't know how many they sent back but lets say it was 4k then that gives us 29,000 tickets for a start.

That's not a bad beginning really.

[Craig_H]

there was never 50.000 liverpool fans in athens, 30.000 max

I'm impressed that you found time to count

Nah but seriously, 30k or whatever, there's always gonna be thousands without tickets and unless every CL final gets played at Wembley or the Nou Camp, it's unavoidable.