Lucas

[Baldemort]

Dont get me wrong, when i mentioned how stats could be misleading, it wasnt to bash lucas about the stoke game, the whole team was poor. But showing his stats as a way of saying he was good is silly as like i said, stats can be misleading. Here are some stats from a recent reason from opta. Now there stats are over a whole season so are about are much more representative of a players abilities than the stats from one game.

passes and pass accuracy-gerrard 1652 77.66%. All the following players had better stats- flamini, cesc, carrick, scholes, ferdinand. None of whom are better than stevie.

tackle success rate- mash 75.76%. All the following had better figures- reocoker, malbranque, muamba, butt, warnock. Thats hilarious.

finally, shooting accuracy.

liverpool-40%. All the following teams were better than us-derby, fulham, newcastle, boro, blackburn, bolton, birmingham, everton.

stats can be misleading. Maybe we should dispense with scouts and just use opta stats instead.

i rest my case.

[einar]

Ah, i see. So lets not bother watching the game when it comes to rating a player, we can just read the stats instead. Thats plain idiotic. Quantitative analysis has its place, but if you cant understand why stats can be misleading then there is no hope for you.
I never said we should only look at stats.

Stevie could have a game where he has the same set of stats as lucas regarding his passes etc but it doesnt make him the same player. A lot of lucas' passes are simple easy johnny sideways passes that most players could pull off. Alonsos stats could never put across just how wonderful a passer of the ball he is. Or how difficult some of the passes are that he pulls off. Stats do have their place in football, but to make a case for a player solely on his stats is stupid.
Same answer as above
As i said, the whole squad were poor against stoke, including lucas, yet your stats show he was great. That in itself shows how stats can be misleading. You're making a fool of yourself with your own posts.

Dont get me wrong, when i mentioned how stats could be misleading, it wasnt to bash lucas about the stoke game, the whole team was poor. But showing his stats as a way of saying he was good is silly as like i said, stats can be misleading. Here are some stats from a recent reason from opta. Now there stats are over a whole season so are about are much more representative of a players abilities than the stats from one game.

passes and pass accuracy-gerrard 1652 77.66%. All the following players had better stats- flamini, cesc, carrick, scholes, ferdinand. None of whom are better than stevie.

tackle success rate- mash 75.76%. All the following had better figures- reocoker, malbranque, muamba, butt, warnock. Thats hilarious.

finally, shooting accuracy.

liverpool-40%. All the following teams were better than us-derby, fulham, newcastle, boro, blackburn, bolton, birmingham, everton.

stats can be misleading. Maybe we should dispense with scouts and just use opta stats instead.

i rest my case.
Same answer as above

I did the same with the Man U vs. Chelsea game and did the stats on Giggs. Every one was talking about how good he was in that game and yet his stats where very similar to Lucas against Stoke and if we take the Newcastle game too they are not as good.

Now, Giggs did nothing in that game in terms of defense splitting passes or assists or did anything but his job as a central midfielder. The only difference I could see was that the team around him was playing really well, and I know we agree that against Stoke Lucas did not have that luxury.

So just answer me this and lets make that the last word on the matter.

What exactly was it that you wanted Lucas to do or not do in that Stoke game that brings you to the conclusion that he was poor?

[Baldemort]

Last word on the matter? Ok dad. Lucas was not the outstanding poor player in the team. They were all pretty bad, even Reina for once. He jumps out of tackles, most of his passes are simple short passes that most average players could make, he shows very little technical skill, he gets muscled off the ball too easily, shows fuk all goal threat. etc etc etc He's ok, but not good enough yet. Personally I don't see anything that will make him a force in our squad. All he does is the simple, easy basic stuff, and i've quite often seen him cock that up.

I love how all the Lucas fans come out now that he's had a few ok performances. He's been poor all season and was shocking against Villa. Possibly one of the worst performances i've seen in a red shirt for a long long time. Just what is it that he excels at? Look at our other midfielders. Gerrard is great at bloody everything. Xabi is a world class passer. Mash is a monster defensively. Kuyt works bloody hard, harder than anyone in the team. Riera has great touch and can pass. Lucas does none of those particularly well, but some of them he does ok. Football is about opinions and my opinion is that he is a poor player at the moment. No stats will make me change my mind. I know what I see with my own two eyes. I'm not the only one who seems to think so either.

Now that's the last word on the matter.

[the rev leeroy brown]

Last word on the matter? Ok dad. Lucas was not the outstanding poor player in the team. They were all pretty bad, even Reina for once. He jumps out of tackles, most of his passes are simple short passes that most average players could make, he shows very little technical skill, he gets muscled off the ball too easily, shows fuk all goal threat. etc etc etc He's ok, but not good enough yet. Personally I don't see anything that will make him a force in our squad. All he does is the simple, easy basic stuff, and i've quite often seen him cock that up.

I love how all the Lucas fans come out now that he's had a few ok performances. He's been poor all season and was shocking against Villa. Possibly one of the worst performances i've seen in a red shirt for a long long time. Just what is it that he excels at? Look at our other midfielders. Gerrard is great at bloody everything. Xabi is a world class passer. Mash is a monster defensively. Kuyt works bloody hard, harder than anyone in the team. Riera has great touch and can pass. Lucas does none of those particularly well, but some of them he does ok. Football is about opinions and my opinion is that he is a poor player at the moment. No stats will make me change my mind. I know what I see with my own two eyes. I'm not the only one who seems to think so either.

Now that's the last word on the matter.

[Baldemort]

So all my hard work is shot down in one sentence?

Stats are not misleading. They show exactly what the show. Nothing more nothing less.
And an 88% pass rate from a 22 year old midfielder at the top of club football is very impressive.
So lets compare. I watched the Newcastle game again.

Newcastle vs. Liverpool

Stats for Lucas Leiva

Balls won 6 100%
Balls lost 0 0%

Headers won 1 50%
Headers lost 1 50%

Tackles won 1 100%
Tackles lost 0 0%

Successful Back passes 19 100%
Unsuccessful back passes 0 0%

Successful side passes 13 100%
Unsuccessful side passes 0 0%

Successful forward passes 17 81%
Unsuccessful forward passes 4 19%

Total nr. of passes 53 93% success rate
36% back, 24% side and 40% forward.

Goal attempts 4
On target 3

Fouls suffered 0
Fouls committed 1

Clearances 2

Key passes* 1
Key tackles 0

*A pass that completely changes the attacking position of the team.

Lucas played for the last 30 min on the right wing. Of those 4 failed passes only one was a real error on his behalf.

So he went from a 93% success rate to a 88% success rate. But in the eyes of the nincompoops like you he went from being ok to being the worst player in the team and is never gonna make it. (Please don´t take this personal) The fact is that he had a great game by any standard (If this had been a 22 year old Gerrard everyone would be beside them selves) against Newcastle, and a good game against Stoke, but in a team that was playing poorly. There was little or no movement in front of him and so on. And please don´t tell me again that he was crap against Stoke unless you have watched the game again, with your head and not your heart.

IMO it would have taken someone truly special to drive Liverpool on to victory in that game at the age of 22. The stats show the he did exactly what he was supposed to do. Made hardly any mistakes (considering that he was playing in midfield and saw allot of the ball ) was very good defensively, made good forward runs, made clever runs into the box, wins the ball far more ofter then he looses it with out ever going to ground. He plays with the coolness of a player 10 years older and he is only gonna get better.

IMO we should be pissed of at the older players in that team who did not pull the team forward, players like Gerrard, Mascherano, Riera, Kuyt or Yossi. Going after the youngest player in the team that day for not playing better is IMO and as the stats indicate, just stupid.

I posted that bunch of stats from Opta about Gerrard and Mash etc because you said what I have highlighted above in red. You said that stats are not misleading. Bollocks. As my post proves. Of course they can be misleading. Or do you agree that Malbranque is a better tackler than Mash. Good grief.

[Baldemort]

Now, as the good Reverend has posted above that he agrees with me regarding Lucas, it just goes to show that it's all about opinions. I'm sure others think he's great. That was not my point when I mentioned that stats, Einar. All I said was that they were all poor and that stats could be misleading. To which you called me a nincompoop. Oh, the irony. I could probably find a bunch of stats to show that you're a genius, which in turn would further bolster my case. I thank you.

[einar]

Now, as the good Reverend has posted above that he agrees with me regarding Lucas, it just goes to show that it's all about opinions. I'm sure others think he's great. That was not my point when I mentioned that stats, Einar. All I said was that they were all poor and that stats could be misleading. To which you called me a nincompoop. Oh, the irony. I could probably find a bunch of stats to show that you're a genius, which in turn would further bolster my case. I thank you.

My point was simply that stats are stats. They tell us exactly what they tell us and can there for not be misleading. Using only stats to judge a players worth on the pitch would bring an incomplete result. On that I agree with you.

The fact that you dismiss stats all together when judging a player, when every single manager in the EPL has a staff of people just to look at stats perhaps says a little about you.

[Baldemort]

Just where exactly did i say i dismiss stats altogether? I didnt. Because i dont. They can be very very useful. But they can be misleading as in the stats i listed from opta,no less. Steed better than mash at tackling? Please.

[einar]

Last word on the matter? Ok dad. Lucas was not the outstanding poor player in the team. I never said he was outstanding, just not anywhere near as bad as most made him out to be.
They were all pretty bad, even Reina for once. He jumps out of tackles, not according to the stats. In those two games he is winning far more balls then he is loosing.
most of his passes are simple short passes that most average players could make, First of all, you need that in a team, second, most of his passes where forward, and third, I´m sure as he gains experience he will try more of the harder stuff.
he shows very little technical skill, I know he does not do step overs, but come on. Nobody with "very little technical skill is voted the best in Brazil at the age of 19
he gets muscled off the ball too easily, not according to the stats
shows fuk all goal threat. the Newcastle game?
etc etc etc He's ok, but not good enough yet. Personally I don't see anything that will make him a force in our squad. All he does is the simple, easy basic stuff, and i've quite often seen him cock that up. not recently though.

I love how all the Lucas fans come out now that he's had a few ok performances. He's been poor all season and was shocking against Villa. Possibly one of the worst performances i've seen in a red shirt for a long long time. Just what is it that he excels at? Look at our other midfielders. Gerrard is great at bloody everything. Xabi is a world class passer. Mash is a monster defensively. Kuyt works bloody hard, harder than anyone in the team. Riera has great touch and can pass. Lucas does none of those particularly well, but some of them he does ok. Football is about opinions and my opinion is that he is a poor player at the moment. No stats will make me change my mind. you sure sound like you are dismissing them, but I´ll take your word for it.
I know what I see with my own two eyes. I'm not the only one who seems to think so either.

Now that's the last word on the matter.[/QUOTE]

Just where exactly did i say i dismiss stats altogether? I didnt. Because i dont. They can be very very useful. But they can be misleading as in the stats i listed from opta,no less. Steed better than mash at tackling? Please.

The stats don´t say Steed is a better tackler then Mascherano, they say he is more constant.

[Baldemort]

Einar, a lot of what you said there is opinion so lets just agree to disagree. But your last point makes no sense. Can you please explain to me how a higher tackle success rate means a more constant tackler?

[einar]

Einar, a lot of what you said there is opinion so lets just agree to disagree. But your last point makes no sense. Can you please explain to me how a higher tackle success rate means a more constant tackler?

Sorry, that was supposed to be consistent.

[Baldemort]

But even then it shows that the stat is misleading. Mash is arguably the best defensive midfielder in the world. One of his most important roles is to consistently make successful tackles in order to break up play. Its what i think he does superbly. Yet according to the stat, steed is better at it than mash. That is plain ludicrous. Stats do have their place, but as that shows, they can be misleading.

[Diego]

But even then it shows that the stat is misleading. Mash is arguably the best defensive midfielder in the world. One of his most important roles is to consistently make successful tackles in order to break up play. Its what i think he does superbly. Yet according to the stat, steed is better at it than mash. That is plain ludicrous. Stats do have their place, but as that shows, they can be misleading.

stats on that matter may not be that mosleading as mach hasn't been all that good this season.

[Baldemort]

stats on that matter may not be that mosleading as mach hasn't been all that good this season.

Those stats were from a previous recent season as my post said. He was ****ing amazing prior to this season, and yet Steed the wondertackler was more successful at tackling than him. Yeh, right. If you believe the stats.

[Guest]

He's playing today. you lot