Evra accuses Suarez of racism

[Roboklopp]

Neil, there's another hound on your territory... And he looks well harder than you.

[Nicey]

Real Chinese, not the southern imposters plus we have her parents here too, so her mum does most of the cooking - unfortunately... not all Chinese can cook well!
The Mrs is too busy being a doctor. Came here, had to go through the whole 'A' level thing, as her previous Chinese degree didn't count, but eventually finished and is now doing A&E and respiritory medicine... Obviously being non-white didn't hold her back too much...

lol, my Chinese Mrs is a Doctor too of the academic variety, she is from Haka stock and I am from Gypsie stock our child is a complete nutter

[Vermilion]

Neil, there's another hound on your territory... And he looks well harder than you.

Been here since 07 too, amazing we've not seen him around more, but judging by his headwear....he only comes out at night.

[Roboklopp]

As top dog, you'd have thought Neil wouldve sniffed him out- especially in his mod capacity.

Mebbe all is not as it seems with the old mutt.

[Neil Young]

There's a few of us in the pack.

We all know our roles in the hierarchy...er...flat democracy based on one dog one...er...I mean, one canine one vote...

[Shaggy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/dec/01/luis-suarez-patrice-evra-racism?CMP=twt_gu

Luis Suárez and Patrice Evra racism case presents problem for FA

It will be tricky for the authorities to work through the semantics of what the Liverpool striker is alleged to have said

What we don't know for certain is the word Luis Suárez used. Patrice Evra alleges it was racist and uttered at least 10 times. Suárez admits he did say something but nothing, for someone with his upbringing in Uruguay, he considers racist or deserving of the Football Association charges that will bring lawyers from Manchester United and Liverpool opposite one another in the coming weeks. Here lies the problem for the FA and the reason why they are thinking about bringing in a QC with specialist knowledge to oversee the case.

In ordinary circumstances, the FA would appoint a three-man panel consisting of an independent chairman, an FA councillor and someone described as a "football expert", meaning a former player or manager. The Guardian, however, has learned the FA might upgrade to a four-man commission because of the complexities of a case in which Suárez can, if necessary, point out he comes from a country where variations of the N-word are used very differently, and that it is actually quite common in Uruguay for men and women of all skin colours to have the nickname of El Negro or La Negra without any racist undertones.

Obdulio Varela, the 1950 World Cup-winning captain and one of the more famous footballers in Uruguayan history, is revered as El Negro Jefe (The Black Chief). Fernando Cáceres, who was in the Argentina squad at the 1994 World Cup, is another El Negro, as is Héctor Enrique, the Argentinian who played the pass for Diego Maradona to slalom through the England team in Mexico 1986. Then consider that Enrique, for example, is not even black, and it becomes even more confused.

Nor is this just a football thing. Rubén "El Negro" Rada is one of the more successful musicians in Uruguay, appearing in a sitcom called La Oveja Negra (The Black Sheep) and with a compilation of his work entitled El Album Negro. Héctor Lescano, the Uruguayan Minister of Sport and Tourism, is known in politics as El Negro Lescano. The late cartoonist and writer Roberto Fontanarrosa and the late singer Mercedes Sosa were two others. Both were white.

Elliott Turner, the author of An Illustrated Guide to Soccer and Spanish, posed the question recently of whether, in the Suárez case, "Anglo racial linguistic norms really offer the right and only lens by which to judge." Turner, writing for The Run Of Play, pointed out that "on a superficial level, in the Spanish language one can use the term negro or güero or moreno, with no negative connotation." Güero is white or light skinned; moreno means brown or dark.

So is it all fairly innocent in the Spanish-speaking world? Not quite. "All language exists in context," Turner continued. "I'd say those terms only to family, friends or acquaintances. If you say the same term with anger in your eyes and hate in your heart, then its meaning can change 180 degrees." Like the time, perhaps, Luis Aragonés referred to Thierry Henry as "negro de mierda" ("a black ****") in 2004.

This is where Suárez may find himself being interrogated. He and Evra were, after all, arguing at the time, so it would be difficult for the Liverpool player to make a case that it was merely an alternative to "mate" or "pal". Then there is the issue of whether ignorance should constitute any form of defence anyway. If a foreign visitor was stopped for driving on the wrong side of the road in England, would he get off simply because he could claim it was the norm where he was from? Suárez has lived in northern Europe since 2006, so an argument could be made he should have a decent grasp of what can and cannot be said outside of South America and would be acceptable in one country but unacceptable in another.

Negrito is another prime example. It turns out this is not the word central to the Suárez-Evra case, but it does reveal a little more about the nuances of the Spanish language, translating as "little black guy" and such a common part of the vernacular that team-mates use it on each other as an affectionate term. Take the message Dani Pacheco, the Liverpool player currently on loan at Rayo Vallecano, sent to his Spain Under-21 colleague Thiago Alcântara via Twitter recently. "Negrito, enjoy yourself," it began.

Visitors to countries such as Uruguay and Argentina can, understandably, find it shocking if they are unaware of the semantics. "The key is the tone in which you say those words," Sebastian Garcia, the South American football writer for Mundo Albiceleste, explains. "It can be extremely friendly to call someone 'negrito' but it can also be very offensive."

In Brazil, it is negão, again with no racist connotation if none is meant. Other terms such as branco (white), moreno (dusky) and mulatto (mixed-race) are also commonly used in a non-offensive way. However they can, too, be used in a racist capacity. Again, it comes down to context.

Another example is of Javier Hernández, now Evra's team-mate at United, in an interview on the Chivas Guadalajara website in 2007, where the Mexican is quoted complimenting "the goal of the Negrito," talking about his team-mate Omar Esparza. As Garcia explains: "It all depends on the connotation, the way it is used, the tone, the intent."

Even then, different rules are in operation. When Carlos Tevez started out at Boca Juniors he was known as El Monito (The Little Monkey). Diego Perotti, the Sevilla player, goes by the same nickname, because his father, Hugo, who played with Diego Maradona at Boca, was El Mono (affixing 'ito' and 'ita' to the end of words is to express that something is smaller). Could a player in England, of whatever race, ever be called this?

If nothing else, it highlights there might be shades of grey involved when it comes to deciding what is racist and what is not. But it is a complicated business and, in Suárez's case, this is why the FA has allowed him more time than usual to respond to the charges. Liverpool say he will vigorously protest his innocence and the striker has said his words were not an insult but just his own "way of expressing myself. I called him something his team-mates at Manchester call him, and even they were surprised by his reaction. There were two parts of the discussion, one in Spanish, one in English."

The delays have been frustrating for Liverpool, where they have offered Suárez their full backing, and also for United, where there is a feeling the dispute may have contributed towards Evra's erratic recent form. One of football's anti-racism bodies has complained behind the scenes that "people are tried for murder in less time." But the semantics and cultural issues are so complex it is not something the men in suits at FA headquarters can learn in a crash course. No date has been set for the hearing and, with legal teams to assemble, a row that began between two rival players on a football pitch on 15 October could very likely go beyond Christmas.

[Shaggy]

If a foreign visitor was stopped for driving on the wrong side of the road in England, would he get off simply because he could claim it was the norm where he was from?

What an appalling analogy.

[Neil Young]

It's silly.

The only other thing I'd immediately quibble with there is the idea that "pal" or "mate" can't be cited as an alternative. It wouldn't be an exact parallel but, in the context discussed here, either can be not meant as a friendly term.

And how much time have we wasted discussing the meaning and connotations of "negrito"?

[Kenneth]

What an appalling analogy.

unbelievably stupid in fact.

[RedReet]

For such a long article, I got, to the end thinking what was his, point.Well I got his, point, but what did he add that hasn't already been said a million times?

[Neil Young]

For such a long article, I got, to the end thinking what was his, point.Well I got his, point, but what did he add that hasn't already been said a million times?

In this thread alone.

To be fair I think the driving analogy is new. I don't understand how we all overlooked it.

[Lee]

I assumed with the bumping of this thread that we'd have more news. Ridiculous that it's taking so long.

[RedReet]

In this thread alone.

To be fair I think the driving analogy is new. I don't understand how we all overlooked it.

Quite surprised and slightly disappointed that I got a sensible reply and not one mocking my use of comma's. It's a phone thing BTW, although maybe a subconscious tribute to the late IRWT.

[RedReet]

Sorry, commas.

[Lee]

Quite surprised and slightly disappointed that I got a sensible reply and not one mocking my use of comma's. It's a phone thing BTW, although maybe a subconscious tribute to the late IRWT.

Looks very much like a Craig post.

Something you want to tell us, RedReet? If that's your real name of course.