Kenny isn't what we need

[Exiled_red]

I can see where you're coming from and there's a case for saying that, but it opens up the question of whether we'd have been playing a first choice XI in the Europa League, which i'm not convinced about.

IMHO, being out of it SHOULD be beneficial to us, but our start hasnt been great, neither has it been awful.

There's no way of knowing whether being in the Europa League would've seen us currently on a higher points tally than we are but i dont think i'd conclude that NOT being in it has been partly responsible for our dropped points thus far.

You don't have to play a full first 11 for it to be beneficial alot of it is about partnerships and link ups. The understanding between a winger and a full back, or a winger and a striker etc extra playing time could help these understandings. It could also (hopefully) have given us some confidence boosts if we'd been able to put a few past some of lesser side in the early rounds.

Like I say it's just a thought.

[The_weatherman]

It's quite interesting to see that over the same period of time the last 3 managers point tally in their first full season in charge has been the following

Rafa 2004-2005 - 17 points after 11 games
Bodgson 2010-2011 15 points after 11 games
Kenny 2011-2012 19 points after 11 games.

Now obviously the Bodge was a dreadful manager and Rafa is a top class manager but there's not a huge difference in points taken there tbh, what I think this shows is that managers need time (not the Bodge obviously) Rafa changed things around and got us to within a gnats pube of winning the title, Kenny has to be given time to build a side put his stamp on it and then be given a couple of seasons to do what we all hope he can do.

Good comparison, although the team Rafa had was IMO the worst of them all. I think Kenny has the best team. But luck has played it's part and Kenny of course deserves a full season to be judged. However I think he's not exempt from criticism and I for one think the team lacks organization and identy not mentioned quality players.

Having said that, organization and team-identy takes time so he should be getting it.

[Craig_H]

You don't have to play a full first 11 for it to be beneficial alot of it is about partnerships and link ups. The understanding between a winger and a full back, or a winger and a striker etc extra playing time could help these understandings. It could also (hopefully) have given us some confidence boosts if we'd been able to put a few past some of lesser side in the early rounds.

Like I say it's just a thought.

It's not a bad thought by any means and i phrased what i said about full first XI badly. What would be a better way of saying it, would be that i'm not sure that many our of 'first team' (including most of the new players) would have featured that much in the Europa League, in order to develop those kind of partnerships you mention.

[Exiled_red]

It's not a bad thought by any means and i phrased what i said about full first XI badly. What would be a better way of saying it, would be that i'm not sure that many our of 'first team' (including most of the new players) would have featured that much in the Europa League, in order to develop those kind of partnerships you mention.

Basing it mostly on the fact that we've put relatively strong teams out in the Carling Cup this year. I'd imagine that had we been in Europe that would probably have been a higher priority so would have treated it in at least a similar manner selection-wise.

[Craig_H]

That could be true, but i wonder whether the fact that the League Cup is straight knockout and therefore has no margin for error, whereas the EL is a 6-game group phase, might have had an impact.

[Exiled_red]

Possibly. Isn't there at least one knockout round before the group stage?

I'd imagine that at least some of games in the group stage would have had fairly strong teams picked for them though, probably depending on the league games around them.

But obviously it's all speculation anyway

[Craig_H]

There may have been a qualifier before the group stage, for some clubs, but i dont think it's for every club. And it would've been against FC Red Lion from Madagascar, or something like that

[Mattshark]

So what if he makes most of the chances? Van Persie makes most of Arsenals chances for instance, but he is just better at finishing them.

Most teams have 1-2 players that can do that little extra and makes/scores most of the goals, and it's maybe only the two manchester teams that have more players doing so.

I just think it's quite strange to focus on our system and playing style, when we are clearly creating more chances than pretty much any other team. We are just wastefull. Bar the Tottenham game with it's special circumstances our defense have been pretty solid in terms of conceeding few goals.

Didn't see the Swansea game, so can't comment on that - but besides that one we have played some great football for most games, hitting the woodwork 12-13 times or something like that and just been incredibly wastefull in front of goal. I choose to see the positive in things, and it must be depressing not being able to do so considering the amount of progress we have made as a club since January, even since June last year.

I don't know if it's a single game of frustration, or if patience have just gone tits up with many supporters, but I do find it mind buggling that people can call for Kenny's head 3½ month in to his first full season

Yes that is true re: Van Persie, however others players in our team are not really get a great deal of chances still, so I think it is more than a case of simply getting someone to score, a lot of our chances are still made by and taken by Suarez, other players are offering a lot in those terms, especially our wide players. A lot of the other shots we have had have been low percentage chances.

As for the formation, as I said we are conceding too much ground in the middle of the pitch, Adam doesn't offer enough in their imo and we lack central midfield options.

I am not calling for Kenny's head btw in the slightest, I however don't think we are using our best options and I don't think we bought well in the summer.

[saveferris]

We really need to get things in to perspective here. If we had just 1 clinical striker in our team nobody would be discussing formations and numbers IMO. We are just by far the most wastefull team up front right now, and we need someone to get the many chances on goals we have transfered in to proper goals. Only city have outdone us in creating chances, and yet we have scored few goals. This has nothing to do with us playing 442.

Sorry about format from c/p, but can't be bothered changing it.

Team Goals Shots On Target Shot Accuracy Succ Passes
Arsenal 20 125 59 47% 4395
Aston Villa 13 85 30 35% 2404
Blackburn Rovers 13 86 38 44% 2325
Bolton Wanderers 13 85 46 54% 2762
Chelsea 23 135 65 48% 4600
Everton 10 93 41 44% 2616
Fulham 13 100 47 47% 3358
Liverpool 14 132 53 40% 3680
Manchester City 36 166 79 48% 4692
Manchester United 27 115 61 53% 4032
Newcastle United 15 97 42 43% 2754
Norwich City 14 109 46 42% 2632
Queens Park Rangers 8 103 36 35% 2773
Stoke City 8 73 25 34% 2104
Sunderland 14 101 41 41% 2726
Swansea City 12 94 40 43% 4426
Tottenham Hotspur 18 119 62 52% 3405
West Bromwich Albion 9 90 40 44% 3001
Wigan Athletic 6 96 36 38% 3232
Wolverhampton Wanderers 9 124 50 40% 2979

This shows how clinical you have to be if you have ambitions to be in the top 4

Look at the teams above us, they are miles ahead of us in terms of conversion rates yet we are right up there in terms of the number of shots we are having

I'd like to see how many chances we have create this season

I reckon we'd be pretty high up the table in terms of that stat

Converting those chances is where we are failing and we are clearly failing miserably in that department

I agree with you guys, regardless of who is creating the chances be it Suarez or a combination of players we are creating them but not finishing them off and that's damaging us. Eleven shots against the woodwork and 3 really great saves lates in games (De Gea, Ruddy and Vorm) mean we are almost there but it adds to the frustration.

Considering we are not far off 4th, with poor shooting boots, players not on top form, and getting used to a new team and style of play and largely without Gerrard who would be a positive influence in our team. There is nothing to suggest we need a change in manager.

I was really annoyed about Saturday's result, we consistently drop points at home against newly promoted teams whilst our competitors dont, people say we played poorly but we still created good chances. However, considering the above and where we sit right now, I still think there is reason to be positive, both in our play and getting results.

[Maxiedge]

Also, lets not forget that when Kenny Dalglish took over, we were, IMO, one of the worst footballing sides I have ever seen with absolutely no clue what to do with the ball. Things were bad. Real bad.

There's other little factors too like Rafa was lucky enough to inherit a team that was in the Champions League and could hence attract certain players. Also, the transfer market was not as inflated as it is now (the Man City-effect).

It's time to stop being such an arse and give the man some credit

[Mattshark]

Also, lets not forget that when Kenny Dalglish took over, we were, IMO, one of the worst footballing sides I have ever seen with absolutely no clue what to do with the ball. Things were bad. Real bad.

There's other little factors too like Rafa was lucky enough to inherit a team that was in the Champions League and could hence attract certain players. Also, the transfer market was not as inflated as it is now (the Man City-effect).

It's time to stop being such an arse and give the man some credit

Well Chelsea were going crazy spending at the time, so that inflation really was there then too.

[Maxiedge]

There was but not as much as there is now. The signings of Lescott and Milner (good but nothing special) for around 18m and 21m respectively, I think raised the bar a little.

[Arn]

So after eleven pages I think most us agree with that he must change system. 4-4-2 with Lucas and Adam in the middle doesn't work.

That is the most important point.

Then we can go on from there discussing what sort of system he should use etc.

If he don't change system and continue to play 4-4-2 with Lucas and Adam then there is no chance to finish in the top four.

So again he must change system or at least stop playing Lucas and Adam in a 4-4-2.

If he continue to play the same system with the same players then he will be sacked sooner or later because we won't progress as a club playing that system.

The question is why we miss a lot of chances? IMO it is because we play 4-4-2 and not getting enough players into the box. We are also playing with a team that lack a lot of pace and movement. You score a lot of goals thanks to having many players in the box. They can go after rebounds etc.

The times we hit the post/bar we should have more players in a scoring position that can tap it in. We don't.

That means benching players like Adam and Downing is a must and replace them with players like Maxi and Spearing that is more mobile and thanks to that get into scoring positions more easily.

We must up our movement and pace or we will continue to drop a lot of points. We must get more difficult to read.

It is very easy to take players like Downing and Adam out of a game. You know what you will get from them. They won't surprise you. You won't know what you will get from a player like Maxi.

We moan about that we don't have game changers. Well, we have Maxi but he isn't playing.

How many times this season have Kenny won the duel against the other manager? He was again outclassed against Swansea. He did nothing to stop them playing, nothing at all. Their manager stopped us playing our game.

The result as I said was that Kenny yet again lost the tactical battle.

Kenny must start to care about how the other team play and stop them playing the way they want. Then he of course also need to set up a tactic to get the best out of our players.

So far he has been terrible doing the above two things.

We drop many points because of Kenny and not because of the players. That is a big problem.

He must start to win the tactical battles. How many of you believe that he will win the battle against Mancini or AVB?

[Redspin]

I can appreciate your frustration Arn but he deserves and needs more time not just because he is who he is but for that fact he's not been in charge for that long.

Give him more time to build the team he wants.

Success won't come overnight mate.

It won't come at all if we persist with the dinosaur 1980s 4-4-2 and signing British lads because Dalglish reportedly wanted a bit of banter in the dressing room that wasn't there when he arrived.

Anyway it will be sorted soon enough. Probably not soon enough for us to get a top 4 this season, but the owners won't put up with the current shambles beyond the end of the season I'm sure.

If we don't get into the top 4 - and that's looking like pure fantasy right now - the manager will have to go

[Chris]

If we don't get into the top 4 - and that's looking like pure fantasy right now - the manager will have to go

Why? Do we have a devine right to finish above Spurs? What if we finish 5th with 70 points and win a Cup, is that a sackable offence now? It completely depends on the circumstances.

And how the hell is getting in to a place we are just 3 points away from pure fantasy? This place is nuts sometimes.