Lucas

[Arn]

I think that a big reason to our great run the last few months last season was that we played against tired teams that couldn't bully us in the same way as fit teams at the start of a season can but that is my opinion.

We still struggle big time when teams decide to have a go against us.

That is something that must be sorted out as soon as possible because team after team will bully us until we showed that we can't get bullied.

[Neil Young]

Hang on. Some people might be scapegoating here. But the tedious closing down and misrepresentation is counterproductive.

I (and I don't think I'm the only one) was more interested in discussing whether there is a potential issue in the balance of the midfield. That is very different from a "kneejerk reaction" or "scapegoating" . I thought BobtheCharmer raised an interesting point when he talked about Lucas's impact on our attacking play.

I've always been a big fan of Lucas, including when he was going through a painful adjustment period when he joined. But he does have limitations and it's legitimate to examine whether the consequences.

It also amazes me when people defend one player (in this case Lucas) by attacking another (Gerrard). They're all part of the same team and Lucas and Gerrard are a pair, a partnership. Of course one can be in-form while the other isn't but a good team doesn't rely on eleven players being in-form to win. The best players make others play well or at least do enough to outweigh the loss to the collective of an underperforming colleague.

I said very clearly that I think the problem on Saturday was to do with the lack of good full backs plus Southampton's pressing (which I actually mentioned in the match thread after about 20 minutes), meaning that the midfield players didn't have enough options and were always under pressure, forcing us to go long.

But...I do think it's legitimate to discuss whether the roles played by Gerrard and Lucas make it harder to overcome problems when there are tactical deficiencies elsewhere in the team (e.g. lack of full backs as outlets and threats going forward) or due to the tactical set-up of the opposition.

That's not a reaction to one game. But, I freely admit, someone said something on here that made me re-examine my own established point of view. Yeah, I know, ****ing crazy.

[wiw]

Surely we look vulnerable on the counter because of the times we repeatedly lose possession and the stupid areas we do it in. Our whole shape and plan is based around possession, the games we struggle in are the games we're sloppy in possession. When we're not drunk on the pitch and actually play to our ability we do pretty well I'd rather aim for the ideal and **** it up sometimes along the way.

[Arn]

What we miss big time IMO is a DM that play dirty and ugly, someone that it will hurt to play against, someone like Masch.

Someone that will make a dirty tackle to wake up the team, someone that will moan at the ref to wake up the team, someone that shows that enough is enough, you don't bully us, if you do, then it will hurt you.

We don't have that type of player, not even on the bench.

[Darkon]

So when someone (me) doesn't think there is anything wrong with the midfield and argues so judged on the result the since January it's not contributing to the discussion? I'm not closing down the discussion, I just don't understand the viewpoint and asks if there is anything concrete to back it up or if it's just based on the Southampton match? So far I have seen very little convincing arguments as to why the Lucas/Gerrard partnership that have given us our best run in 5 years all of a sudden have turned bad and become unbalanced in the last few games?

It's to me rahter a poor team performance in those games, from a mixture of new faces in the team i.e. Aspas, Sakho, Toure and Moses and the reliance on young players on the bench, and the fact that all teams go through good and bad form - just a question of how long it is / how good you are at turning it around. THat's mainly a mentality question of the players if you ask me.

It's just strange to me how this discussion all of a sudden pops up after our first defeat in 13 games. Our team isn't unbalanced, our tactics are overall working well but we have work to do on the squad still and getting it hinged together.

You may have felt hit by my post - so be it - but to me it screams the need to point at someone when it goes Lucas vs Gerrard rather than just accepting that it's still a team effort being build. It looks to me like scapegoating, like the word or not, a poor team performance rahter than accepting we are still on a build up and will loose games as a team - and we will lose more down the line.

Don't recollect ever trying to close the discussion down, just trying to understand why anyone all os a sudden discovers a problem in our CM - and I have yet to see to me a convincing point.

[BigChief]

Surely we look vulnerable on the counter because of the times we repeatedly lose possession and the stupid areas we do it in. Our whole shape and plan is based around possession, the games we struggle in are the games we're sloppy in possession. When we're not drunk on the pitch and actually play to our ability we do pretty well I'd rather aim for the ideal and **** it up sometimes along the way.

Tiki taka wasn't build in a day.

[Neil Young]

So when someone (me) doesn't think there is anything wrong with the midfield and argues so judged on the result the since January it's not contributing to the discussion? I'm not closing down the discussion, I just don't understand the viewpoint and asks if there is anything concrete to back it up or if it's just based on the Southampton match? So far I have seen very little convincing arguments as to why the Lucas/Gerrard partnership that have given us our best run in 5 years all of a sudden have turned bad and become unbalanced in the last few games?

It's to me rahter a poor team performance in those games, from a mixture of new faces in the team i.e. Aspas, Sakho, Toure and Moses and the reliance on young players on the bench, and the fact that all teams go through good and bad form - just a question of how long it is / how good you are at turning it around. THat's mainly a mentality question of the players if you ask me.

It's just strange to me how this discussion all of a sudden pops up after our first defeat in 13 games. Our team isn't unbalanced, our tactics are overall working well but we have work to do on the squad still and getting it hinged together.

You may have felt hit by my post - so be it - but to me it screams the need to point at someone when it goes Lucas vs Gerrard rather than just accepting that it's still a team effort being build. It looks to me like scapegoating, like the word or not, a poor team performance rahter than accepting we are still on a build up and will loose games as a team - and we will lose more down the line.

Don't recollect ever trying to close the discussion down, just trying to understand why anyone all os a sudden discovers a problem in our CM - and I have yet to see to me a convincing point.

I've covered all of that already.

What a monumental waste of my time this place is.

[dww]

I think that's crazy. First, Lucas is not the very best at his job - I think Mascherano was better at it than Lucas is as he was faster (or appeared to be). So if we had a better player there he would, by definition, do more than Lucas does. That can only strengthen the side.

Second if Lucas was able or allowed (it's not clear which) to do a bit more creatively then Gerrard would have to do a bit less. Gerrard is better defensively than most creative midfielders (Carrick for instance) so he already contributes more in that regard than many creative players. So it's feasible that Gerrard is making Lucas look good by helping him out while the reverse may not be the case.

I think the issue in central midfield is about balance. What I don't know is whether their "limitations" are imposed by the roles Rodgers has designated for them or by their own personal abilities and weaknesses.

I think I preferred the way you made this point before. For me it is about the balance of the team around the central midfield axis. With relatively static/defensive fullbacks and the lack of someone who can take the ball and create in tight spaces ahead of them then I think the limitations of the Lucas/Gerrard partnership (at least with Gerrard as deep as he has been playing) is exposed.

[dww]

What we miss big time IMO is a DM that play dirty and ugly, someone that it will hurt to play against, someone like Masch.

Someone that will make a dirty tackle to wake up the team, someone that will moan at the ref to wake up the team, someone that shows that enough is enough, you don't bully us, if you do, then it will hurt you.

We don't have that type of player, not even on the bench.

People have often criticised Arsenal for this but they still do well every season and are currently doing pretty well this season.

[Slinky Skills]

Unfair to single Lucas out, the midfield dynamic hasn't worked that well the last couple of games but the defensive side of his game is and has been solid it's the offensive side that's really lacked.(midfield as a whole)

The chemistry of Lucas and Gerrard just doesn't seem right

I think the fact they're both playing too deep doesn't help.

Gerrard could do with being shifted a little bit further up and have Henderson do the donkey work deep alongside Lucas, he's got the legs and the energy for it as you can clearly see on Norbs' avatar.

[Darkon]

I've covered all of that already.

What a monumental waste of my time this place is.

Thank god for alternatives then...

You accused me of (trying to) closing down the discussion, I just counter-argued why I didn't - can't help if you feel that's a waste of your time trying to explain why my post was supposed to read differently. Good thing you spend your time well telling me so.

[wiw]

What a monumental waste of my time this place is.

It's taken you 62,568 posts to realise that?

[Arn]

I think it is very dangerous to look at the table and see that we have 10 points and at the same time more or less don't look at what is happening on the pitch, how we play.

10 points but we have also played our worst football since we had Roy as manager in the second half of the games.

0 goals scored in the second half after five games. Team after team bully us knowing that they can do it so far this season without any response from us.

Lucas is an excellent player but he is also very easy to bully. That is his big weakness.

We will get a fighter back in the next game, Suarez. One player that is prepared to do everything to win. It isn't only his football skills we missed. We have also missed his winning attitude, his moaning, his play acting that upset the opposition etc.

One player I miss is the "old" Gerrard. The Gerrard that made dirty tackles to wake up the team, the player that moaned at the ref to wake up the team, the player that showed that enough is enough.

The player that lead by example on the pitch thanks to his winning attitude.

[Arn]

People have often criticised Arsenal for this but they still do well every season and are currently doing pretty well this season.

Wenger have built up his system a long time. They have the system and tactic to fall back on when things don't work.

We don't.

It takes many years to build up the tactic and system until you get that stability.

[Darkon]

I think it is very dangerous to look at the table and see that we have 10 points and at the same time more or less don't look at what is happening on the pitch, how we play.

10 points but we have also played our worst football since we had Roy as manager in the second half of the games.

0 goals scored in the second half after five games. Team after team bully us knowing that they can do it so far this season without any response from us.

Lucas is an excellent player but he is also very easy to bully. That is his big weakness.

We will get a fighter back in the next game, Suarez. One player that is prepared to do everything to win. It isn't only his football skills we missed. We have also missed his winning attitude, his moaning, his play acting that upset the opposition etc.

One player I miss is the "old" Gerrard. The Gerrard that made dirty tackles to wake up the team, the player that moaned at the ref to wake up the team, the player that showed that enough is enough.

The player that lead by example on the pitch thanks to his winning attitude.

I agree we still lack a bit mentality wise in the team, but to me it's not really down to Lucas/Gerrard, it's the team in enterity with the exception of our central defence perhaps. We still have a fragile team mentality wise, and it goes seasons back. We are very good when the agreements made are held on the pitch, but we also start to wobble a bit when the players get tired - as the match progresses. To me it's not a question of us being bullied, we tackle as much and as well as in the first half - but the team plays a bit slower and get's unsure as the match progresses.

For example I think we tend to forget the patterns of run when the match progresses, the standard way we set up triangles are lost a bit, and then we end up passing it backwards to much. We are still learning the system as a team, and with a lot of new players, and besides a few I think we are still couping with doubt.

It takes ~1 year to get a player fully settled in a team it's said, at least if he doesn't come from the same, and looking at our lineups this season we have half a team that needs learning. When 1 player in a possession based team forget's his duties the whole team suffers and to me that's what happens when the team get's tired. It's not moulded well enough in to the spine yet. Lucas and Gerrard are to me one of the best working parts in the second half, and they keep their movement and positioning for most parts. The problem around them.

Gerrard doesn't tackle quite as feroucisly as he used to - I think he learned from his injuries now.