Lucas

[Alex]

Essien and Gilberto are not comparable with Lucas in their ability to play over the halfway line.

Your opinion. But you asked for a team that won the league with a DM. You didnt ask for teams that won the league with better DM's than Lucas. [/COLOR]

Busequets and Yaya Toure before him are miles better players than Lucas, and are superb at moving the ball. Your example doesn't strengthen your argument.

You talk about moving the ball. Ok then, what does Lucas do when he wins it? Run away and leave it where he made the tackle?

It's nothing to do with Hollywood balls. That "attack" you've described is gash. So you get the ball to a wide player 50 yards from goal and that's how an attack is started? That's what Lucas does and it's not effective. It will never break down an organized defence, even if that side is inferior. He can't do anything against two lines of four. Nothing. That's my gripe with him, a third CB playing higher up the pitch.

The attack I was describing was somewhat a parody, but I said it to make a point. Just because he isnt spraying balls all over the place doesnt mean he isnt setting up the attack.

..and yes, you get a ball to your more attacking players (wide in this example) and an attack is started. Before you dismiss the point, have a watch and see what he does when he gets the ball. He doesnt hoof it away, he places a pass. I dont know what else he can do? If he sits higher, he is ineffective, if he sits deeper he is a CB.

[RedReet]

And yet no title winning team has ever had a strictly ball winning defensive midfielder in their line up who didn't have the capability to effectively moving the ball against an organized defence.

The "DM" is the most overrated position in football. If a central midfielder can't really pass very effectively over the half way line and is a "good tackler", then he's labeled as a "DM", and it suddenly makes it okay...

And yet that DM, is still very much a CM, and if he can't pass the ball very effectively over the halfway line, then he is a hinderance, not beneficial when a team has the ball.

If you've ever asked yourself how the mancs manage to maintain pressure so well when chasing a goal, that's because all their midfielders over the years had the ability to maintain, and distribute the ball with purpose and conviction in the final third. That requires both central midfielders, not just one of them. A "DM" should not be excused of offensive duties in moving the ball and is not a centre back playing higher up the pitch. He should very well be capable at moving the ball under pressure.

Lucas can't do that. He's **** at that. You can count his "chances created" in the stats sheets all you want, but most of his 'good' passes have come from winning the ball and moving the ball forward in a counter attack opportunity. I obviously have no problem with that, but when chasing a goal, facing a side sitting back, he is not effective. He is a hindrance.

Aye, just ask Madrid fans how they coped since selling Makelele and how many millions they have spent trying to reclaim the Champions league since. Two league wins and a CL medal in just 3 years, compared to just 2 more leagues in the 8 years since and not a sniff of the CL. I dare say Chelsea fans would have him back in a heartbeat too.

[JohnDoe]

Johndoe, you are Ests1892's very own Pele - whatever you say about football, the exact opposite is usually true.

And yet time will say I'm right unfortunately.

I'll say this: We will never win the league, or come close to winning the league, with Lucas or any comparable player with comparable skills as a consistently first choice player at CM. To win the league, you have to consistently break down inferior sides, week in, week out. Most of the season, you're going to face those inferior teams. Lucas contributes nothing as a CM, absolutely nothing, to a team chasing a goal in that scenario.

You can praise his work rate and his tackling, but bottom line, he won't help get you those points in the table and turn 0-0's into 2-0's. Not only does he not help, he's a hidden liability in our efforts to do so.

Lucas will continue to look good against top teams when we have less of the possession and he will continue to be ineffective in games we dominate possession.

[Alex]

Ohh, JohnDoe. I forgot to say Makelele at Chelsea too.

[Norbs]

When you say Masch left and he shined in an easier more specialized role, you mean the DM role yeah, the one that Mascherano is widely classed as world class in, and he adds nothing to the attack.

Every team needs a good defensive midfielder, and Lucas isn't just good in that role, he's great in it.

No that's not fair. Mascherano also had the facial expression of a leader, one which fans could translate in to a warriors call to arms. If there's any criticism of Lucas it's that he sometimes looks a bit dim and lost. He'll never have a world class facial expression

[JohnDoe]

Aye, just ask Madrid fans how they coped since selling Makelele and how many millions they have spent trying to reclaim the Champions league since. Two league wins and a CL medal in just 3 years, compared to just 2 more leagues in the 8 years since and not a sniff of the CL. I dare say Chelsea fans would have him back in a heartbeat too.

Makelele was the catalyst to the inflation of the "DM"'s importance to the team.

You had a team with Raul, Ronaldo, Zidane and Figo. Someone had to win balls in midfield there. Makelele did it well, but he only needed to that well. He didn't need to do anything going forward because that team had freaking Ronaldo, Raul, Zidane and Figo.

And now you're using the Makelele example to explain why Lucas is so important?

When we have 4 of the world's best players occupying the front four positions, let me know. Lucas may be a useful option then.

[RedReet]

After last years Chelsea match...

Kenny Dalglish has hailed Lucas Leiva for his transformation at Liverpool and says it is no surprise to see him playing the Dunga role for Brazil.

While Lucas, 24, has received the consistent backing of Liverpool managers, he has struggled to win over the fans since signing from Gremio in 2007.

However, his impressive performances over the last year have seen many supporters come around and, after he won his ninth cap for his country in the friendly against France this week, Dalglish feels he fully deserves international recognition.

"It was interesting to see him playing for Brazil on Wednesday," he said. "They have had some fantastic players in his position and the best known was Dunga, who won World Cups and went on to manage the national side.

"I've always said Lucas is highly thought of in Brazil, probably more than in Britain, but certainly not at Liverpool. I don't know why he has started playing so well. Maybe he just needed time to settle. Whatever the reason, we're just grateful for the job that he's doing.

"We have always appreciated what he can do. Last Sunday he was as good as anyone on the pitch at Chelsea, so to see him playing for Brazil wasn't really a surprise for me."

He added: "I don't think Lucas is going to be the one who beats five or six players and puts it into the back of the net, but he may be the one who stops the guy going past the first fella then sets us on our way.

"He's an important member of the team. Most teams have someone like that in the ranks and we are no different. The fact he started on Wednesday for Brazil tells you they must be very pleased with him as well, and the performances he's put in for us mean he's deserved it."

Sack Kenny!

[JohnDoe]

When Kenny wins the league with Lucas as a first choice player, I'll put my hand up and admit I was wrong.

He won't.

[RedReet]

Makelele was the catalyst to the inflation of the "DM"'s importance to the team.

You had a team with Raul, Ronaldo, Zidane and Figo. Someone had to win balls in midfield there. Makelele did it well, but he only needed to that well. He didn't need to do anything going forward because that team had freaking Ronaldo, Raul, Zidane and Figo.

And now you're using the Makelele example to explain why Lucas is so important?

When we have 4 of the world's best players occupying the front four positions, let me know. Lucas may be a useful option then.

Ok then, so there is no point in us going out and buying world class talent in other positions if we aren't gonna play Lucas, or 'someone to win the ball'. Even with the best players on the planet, Madrid were **** without having an overrated defensive midfeilder.

I don't get your point to be honest, but that isn't surprising.

[Alex]

So the only way you will admit he is a good player is if we win the league?

Do you feel the same for someone like Fabregas? Never won a league title, so he must be ****?

[Norbs]

100%

Agree with every word.

Lucas won't feature too much on highlights but he plays one of the most important roles in the team & I've yet to see a PL player who plays it better than Lucas. He so often represents the end of the opposition's attacks & the start of ours. Superly consistent player who, as you say, delivers week in, week out. He's the kind of player you dont often think you'd miss, until you dont have him. As we found out against Norwich.

Other than the obligatory yellow card of course

But you're right, he doesn't and that is precisely why other fans are often quoted as calling him ****. That's fine by me, he can carry on with the full backing of most Reds.

[JohnDoe]

So the only way you will admit he is a good player is if we win the league?

No, I'll admit you can win the league with a strict ball winner occupying your central midfield berth.

[RedReet]

Tell me this John Doe…

If I scroll back through older posts, will I find that you were one of the ones jumping on the Andy Gray bandwagon saying that we could never win anything with ‘two defensive midfeilders’, moaning about it after every dropped point and no doubt calling for 442?

[Alex]

So your never going admit he is a good player at any point?

[RedReet]

So your never going admit he is a good player?

I don’t think he even believes it himself to be honest. I don’t know why I took the bait, but he obviously gets some kick out of this which is why he has contributed nearly the most posts in a Lucas thread. How many ways is there to say someone is ****?