Lucas

[Buzzo]

The boy has always been a very hard working midfielder, a top pro and a sound lad who was easily coached, who stuck his foot in, played the safe pass and closed players down.

These are all sound attributes. However, a world class player it does not make, nor some sort of untouchable player who can not be replaced. Players like Lucas Leiva are not rare commodities. He does not possess any exceptional talents or any exceptional ability, other than tackling maybe, the most overrated stat in the game. Anything he has supposedly shown in Brazil did not translate to the faster game here.

Mascherano leaving was the main reason Lucas started to "shine". He was less expected to perform offensively and he had an easier, more specialized role. He was also surrounded by ****. There were so many games we were absolutely atrocious in during the Bodge days, and Lucas was the only one who warranted any credit in those games because he was an isle of consistency in his hard working approach. That got him the votes.

And so the Lucas myth of "vast improvement" grew. Yes, he did get better, he got more experienced, he grew more confident (probably because he just started to get appreciated over the things he has always done), but to suggest he has developed into a world class "special" player in a pseudo fairy tale story of the underdog that everyone loves to wank themselves silly over?

I ain't buying that.

That would be a challenging wank for all but the most ardent Lucas supporters.

Your argument is one of semantics really. You admit Lucas is good, even great a tackling, but seem to have an issue with the fact that others think his improvement has been at a faster rate than the rate you feel he has improved...

I don't know how you can be bothered its devils advocate gone insane.

Unless you produce some graphs

[Craig_H]

You're quite correct. Most have realised just how wrong they were, the boy has always been boss.

So Lucas was performing at the same level in his first season or two, as he is now?

You cannot seriously believe that...

[RedReet]

Here we go again...

[JohnDoe]

When you say Masch left and he shined in an easier more specialized role, you mean the DM role yeah, the one that Mascherano is widely classed as world class in, and he adds nothing to the attack.

Mascherano is also a somewhat overrated player and there is a reason why he doesn't play in midfield for Barca. Alonso made him look world class here because Masch could just focus on what he does best, which is to play off the ball. I did love Masch, but I stopped loving him when Alonso left and I had to watch him pick up the ball from the defence.

Lucas is also someone who's best playing off the ball, which is what made that central pairing of them disastrous. Your idea of a defensive midfielder being "needed" in every top side is flawed, because top sides don't sacrifice offensive fluidity for "tackling". Offensively fluidity and the ability to initiate an attack against an organized defence is much more important, and should be more valued in a top team. You need to be strong defensively, but not at the price of sacrificing a player going forward. You just solve one problem and create another, bigger, problem. It's much easier to teach someone to stick his foot in and defend his position than teach him how to be creative.

[BringbackBiscan]

So Lucas was performing at the same level in his first season or two, as he is now?

You cannot seriously believe that...

More or less yes. Not with quite as much consistency but being in and out of a team will do that. He was a step down in quality from Masch & Alonso at the time, and he still is tbh. Although it's unfair for any young lad to be compared with those two, who are simply two of the highest quality in the world.

It really wasn't hard to see how good the lad was. He became the scapegoat for everything that didn't go 100% to plan.

[Craig_H]

Here we go again...

Why can BBB post his comment but when i post mine it's 'here we go again' ?

One 'rule' for one.... :surprisesurprise:

[Craig_H]

More or less yes. Not with quite as much consistency but being in and out of a team will do that. He was a step down in quality from Masch & Alonso at the time, and he still is tbh. Although it's unfair for any young lad to be compared with those two, who are simply two of the highest quality in the world.

It really wasn't hard to see how good the lad was. He became the scapegoat for everything that didn't go 100% to plan.

Having come here at 21/22 to a new league, country, culture, language etc was always going to be a learning curve. If you're saying he hasn't improved all that much since he joined, I'd have to respectfully disagree, I think he's improved hugely.

[RedReet]

Why can BBB post his comment but when i post mine it's 'here we go again' ?

One 'rule' for one.... :surprisesurprise:

You got me. I’d just been to the Mod lounge and they told me to pick on you.

Sorry team, rumbled on my first mission. Many thanks to Biscan for trying to set it up for us though.

[Lee]

Hippobowl

It's a horrible word.

[Buzzo]

Here we go again...

Loving Lucas it's this years bring back Rafa.

[Buzzo]

Why can BBB post his comment but when i post mine it's 'here we go again' ?

One 'rule' for one.... :surprisesurprise:

I think BBB was pointing out that JD's post could have been construed as being a 'pro Lucas' one

Edit: seems BBB is capable of mounting his own defence, ignore me.

[Daniel 7]

Mascherano is also a somewhat overrated player and there is a reason why he doesn't play in midfield for Barca. Alonso made him look world class here because Masch could just focus on what he does best, which is to play off the ball. I did love Masch, but I stopped loving him when Alonso left and I had to watch him pick up the ball from the defence.

Lucas is also someone who's best playing off the ball, which is what made that central pairing of them disastrous. Your idea of a defensive midfielder being "needed" in every top side is flawed, because top sides don't sacrifice offensive fluidity for "tackling". Offensively fluidity and the ability to initiate an attack against an organized defence is much more important, and should be more valued in a top team. You need to be strong defensively, but not at the price of sacrificing a player going forward. You just solve one problem and create another, bigger, problem. It's much easier to teach someone to stick his foot in and defend his position than teach him how to be creative.

So now Mascherano wasn't all that either, ffs

Not buying this, to disprove everyone who says Lucas is good, you're method is to disparage everything and everyone else?

Lucas offers more going forward now than he ever has, and he's getting better all the time!

[Daniel 7]

I think BBB was pointing out that JD's post could have been construed as being a 'pro Lucas' one

Edit: seems BBB is capable of mounting his own defence, ignore me.

"He must break you"

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygQvB6OjHOU"]I must break you - YouTube[/ame]

[Charly]

I personally thought Lucas was our best player against Chelsea. He held everything together, even when Adam went missing, was a monster at winning balls, and also set up a few attacks. He even did a couple of Brazillianesque flicks.

I think we did a good bit of business selling Mascherano (ok maybe not the price... or the timing... alright it was a ****e bit of business), as I think Lucas is developing into a better all round player, in the Hamman mould.

Its just goes to show that young players do need time to develop, and writing off a youth or reserve team player before they hit 21, 22 or even 23 may be premature.

[Buzzo]

I personally thought Lucas was our best player against Chelsea. He held everything together, even when Adam went missing, was a monster at winning balls, and also set up a few attacks. He even did a couple of Brazillianesque flicks.

I think we did a good bit of business selling Mascherano (ok maybe not the price... or the timing... alright it was a ****e bit of business), as I think Lucas is developing into a better all round player, in the Hamman mould.

Its just goes to show that young players do need time to develop, and writing off a youth or reserve team player before they hit 21, 22 or even 23 may be premature.

I thought both him and Adam were superb to be honest. We were playing Chelsea away after all and it would be naive in the extreme to expect that they wouldn't have a period of the game where they dominated play. My mind is stuck on one moment though with Lucas where he brought a difficult ball under control -killed it stone dead- and escaped a couple of players with a superb flick and turn. He is 24 and I think will keep developing into an even better player...