Lucas

[Buzzo]

"He must break you"

I must break you - YouTube

[Arn]

Mascherano is also a somewhat overrated player and there is a reason why he doesn't play in midfield for Barca. Alonso made him look world class here because Masch could just focus on what he does best, which is to play off the ball. I did love Masch, but I stopped loving him when Alonso left and I had to watch him pick up the ball from the defence.

Lucas is also someone who's best playing off the ball, which is what made that central pairing of them disastrous. Your idea of a defensive midfielder being "needed" in every top side is flawed, because top sides don't sacrifice offensive fluidity for "tackling". Offensively fluidity and the ability to initiate an attack against an organized defence is much more important, and should be more valued in a top team. You need to be strong defensively, but not at the price of sacrificing a player going forward. You just solve one problem and create another, bigger, problem. It's much easier to teach someone to stick his foot in and defend his position than teach him how to be creative.

It is key to have hard working defensive players in the team if you want to control games.

Players that make the easy pass and you know will be able to keep the ball and not lose possession of it. The loss of possession thing is probably the most important thing of them all.

If a defensive player lose possession of the ball then the opposition will be in the attacking half against a defence that isn't organized at all when they start the attack.

It is key that a defensive midfielder don't make mistakes. If he don't create that many chances isn't important. The key is that you know that the DM will deliver week in week out. He is Mr reliable. You know that he will do his job.

When was the last time Lucas played a bad game? It is so long ago that you can't remember when he did that. He always do his job know. He deliver in EVERY game.

How many DM can you say that about? How many players can you say that about?

It also proved that it is a myth that he always play the ball sideways or back. The majority of his passes is attacking ones. Not long elegant Hollywood style but short and quick to an attacking player just as he should do. If he attacks to much then it leaves a whole behind the midfield that the AM from the other team can use against us.

We get very few counter attacks against us because of Lucas. That means that we leak very few goals because of Lucas.

Adam can then play higher up the pitch and make the attacking passes. As he should do. That is his job.

Lucas job isn't to attack. It is to defend. To moan about that he don't deliver in attack is as bad as moaning that Reina don't score enough goals.

[Craig_H]

It is key to have hard working defensive players in the team if you want to control games.

Players that make the easy pass and you know will be able to keep the ball and not lose possession of it. The loss of possession thing is probably the most important thing of them all.

If a defensive player lose possession of the ball then the opposition will be in the attacking half against a defence that isn't organized at all when they start the attack.

It is key that a defensive midfielder don't make mistakes. If he don't create that many chances isn't important. The key is that you know that the DM will deliver week in week out. He is Mr reliable. You know that he will do his job.

When was the last time Lucas played a bad game? It is so long ago that you can't remember when he did that. He always do his job know. He deliver in EVERY game.

How many DM can you say that about? How many players can you say that about?

It also proved that it is a myth that he always play the ball sideways or back. The majority of his passes is attacking ones. Not long elegant Hollywood style but short and quick to an attacking player just as he should do. If he attacks to much then it leaves a whole behind the midfield that the AM from the other team can use against us.

We get very few counter attacks against us because of Lucas. That means that we leak very few goals because of Lucas.

Adam can then play higher up the pitch and make the attacking passes. As he should do. That is his job.

Lucas job isn't to attack. It is to defend. To moan about that he don't deliver in attack is as bad as moaning that Reina don't score enough goals.

100%

Agree with every word.

Lucas won't feature too much on highlights but he plays one of the most important roles in the team & I've yet to see a PL player who plays it better than Lucas. He so often represents the end of the opposition's attacks & the start of ours. Superly consistent player who, as you say, delivers week in, week out. He's the kind of player you dont often think you'd miss, until you dont have him. As we found out against Norwich.

[Kenneth]

Quick. Close the thread.

[Craig_H]

Mascherano is also a somewhat overrated player and there is a reason why he doesn't play in midfield for Barca. Alonso made him look world class here because Masch could just focus on what he does best, which is to play off the ball. I did love Masch, but I stopped loving him when Alonso left and I had to watch him pick up the ball from the defence.

Lucas is also someone who's best playing off the ball, which is what made that central pairing of them disastrous. Your idea of a defensive midfielder being "needed" in every top side is flawed, because top sides don't sacrifice offensive fluidity for "tackling". Offensively fluidity and the ability to initiate an attack against an organized defence is much more important, and should be more valued in a top team. You need to be strong defensively, but not at the price of sacrificing a player going forward. You just solve one problem and create another, bigger, problem. It's much easier to teach someone to stick his foot in and defend his position than teach him how to be creative.

Name me one top side which doesnt have a 'protective' or 'holding' central midfielder, designed to help shield the back four and solidify.

City - De Jong or Barry (depending on who is picked)
United - Fletcher or Carrick
Arsenal - Song
Spurs - Parker
Chelsea - Mikel
Barcelona - Busquets
Real Madrid - Khedeira or Alonso


Regardless of how good any of them is at that job, every club uses someone to do that role. Clearly a mark of how crucial a job it is.

[little dave hedgehog]

agree. lucas is a more rounded player than mascherano ever has been. to complain about lucas going forward and then laud mascherano is just ridiculous.

[JohnDoe]

Name me one top side which doesnt have a 'protective' or 'holding' central midfielder, designed to help shield the back four and solidify.

City - De Jong or Barry (depending on who is picked)
United - Fletcher or Carrick
Arsenal - Song
Spurs - Parker
Chelsea - Mikel
Barcelona - Busquets
Real Madrid - Khedeira or Alonso


Regardless of how good any of them is at that job, every club uses someone to do that role. Clearly a mark of how crucial a job it is.

Barry: Way more well rounded and better moving the ball forward.
United: Never play a strict ball winner in their team. I remember Phil Neville getting a run in the team a few years ago but that's about it.
Arsenal: Have won **** all with Song in the team. Or with Denilson.
Spurs: See Barry.
Chelsea: Have won and will win **** all with Mikel as first choice player.
Barcelona: Not comparable with Lucas in any shape, way or form.
Real Madrid: See Barca.

It's not the position I have a problem with, it's the ability, or lack of it, in a defensive midfielder who's not good at initiating offense. City are a better without De Jong.

[JohnDoe]

It is key to have hard working defensive players in the team if you want to control games.

Players that make the easy pass and you know will be able to keep the ball and not lose possession of it. The loss of possession thing is probably the most important thing of them all.

If a defensive player lose possession of the ball then the opposition will be in the attacking half against a defence that isn't organized at all when they start the attack.

It is key that a defensive midfielder don't make mistakes. If he don't create that many chances isn't important. The key is that you know that the DM will deliver week in week out. He is Mr reliable. You know that he will do his job.

When was the last time Lucas played a bad game? It is so long ago that you can't remember when he did that. He always do his job know. He deliver in EVERY game.

How many DM can you say that about? How many players can you say that about?

It also proved that it is a myth that he always play the ball sideways or back. The majority of his passes is attacking ones. Not long elegant Hollywood style but short and quick to an attacking player just as he should do. If he attacks to much then it leaves a whole behind the midfield that the AM from the other team can use against us.

We get very few counter attacks against us because of Lucas. That means that we leak very few goals because of Lucas.

Adam can then play higher up the pitch and make the attacking passes. As he should do. That is his job.

Lucas job isn't to attack. It is to defend. To moan about that he don't deliver in attack is as bad as moaning that Reina don't score enough goals.

He had some very bad games THIS SEASON, which have been wiped under the carpet.

[Alex]

Its only in the last 5 years the DM has gotten a prominent role. It took English football fans a while to accept it.

[JohnDoe]

Its only in the last 5 years the DM has gotten a prominent role. It took English football fans a while to accept it.

And yet no title winning team has ever had a strictly ball winning defensive midfielder in their line up who didn't have the capability to effectively moving the ball against an organized defence.

The "DM" is the most overrated position in football. If a central midfielder can't really pass very effectively over the half way line and is a "good tackler", then he's labeled as a "DM", and it suddenly makes it okay...

And yet that DM, is still very much a CM, and if he can't pass the ball very effectively over the halfway line, then he is a hinderance, not beneficial when a team has the ball.

If you've ever asked yourself how the mancs manage to maintain pressure so well when chasing a goal, that's because all their midfielders over the years had the ability to maintain, and distribute the ball with purpose and conviction in the final third. That requires both central midfielders, not just one of them. A "DM" should not be excused of offensive duties in moving the ball and is not a centre back playing higher up the pitch. He should very well be capable at moving the ball under pressure.

Lucas can't do that. He's **** at that. You can count his "chances created" in the stats sheets all you want, but most of his 'good' passes have come from winning the ball and moving the ball forward in a counter attack opportunity. I obviously have no problem with that, but when chasing a goal, facing a side sitting back, he is not effective. He is a hindrance.

[Alex]

And yet no title winning team has ever had a strictly ball winning defensive midfielder in their line up who didn't have the capability to effectively moving the ball against an organized defence.

The "DM" is the most overrated position in football. If a central midfielder can't really pass very effectively over the half way line and is a "good tackler", then he's labeled as a "DM", and it suddenly makes it okay...

And yet that DM, is still very much a CM, and if he can't pass the ball very effectively over the halfway line, then he is a hinderance, not beneficial when a team has the ball.

If you've ever asked yourself how the mancs manage to maintain pressure so well when chasing a goal, that's because all their midfielders over the years had the ability to maintain, and distribute the ball with purpose and conviction in the final third. That requires both central midfielders, not just one of them. A "DM" should not be excused of offensive duties in moving the ball and is not a centre back playing higher up the pitch. He should very well be capable at moving the ball under pressure.

Lucas can't do that. He's **** at that. You can count his "chances created" in the stats sheets all you want, but most of his 'good' passes have come from winning the ball and moving the ball forward in a counter attack opportunity. I obviously have no problem with that, but when chasing a goal, facing a side sitting back, he is not effective. He is a hindrance.

Apart from when Chelsea played Essien, or Arsenal had Gilberto?

Id also point to Barcalona as a non PL example. Who are probably the best footballing side in the last 20 years.

Also, I am pretty sure that Lucas is good moving the ball about under pressure, and Ive seen him start more attacks off that I can remember. Just because he isnt 'Hollywood' like Adam, does not mean he is not key to the attacks starting. He wins the ball, moves it out to a wide player and an attack is started. Its not hard to notice if you look. But I suppose, if your not looking to see it, you will only see what you want.

Your making it seem like he only ever passes sideways or to Charlie at the moment. Which is totally wrong.

[JohnDoe]

Lucas job isn't to attack. It is to defend. To moan about that he don't deliver in attack is as bad as moaning that Reina don't score enough goals.

Feel the need to quote this alone. This is the problem. A "defensive" midfielder is not a third CB playing higher up the pitch. If you're a man down over the halfway line (and we effectively are when Lucas is on the pitch and other side is not caught up), then our ability to create will be greatly reduced.

A central midfielder is a central midfielder. Obviously in a midfield pairing, on is more attack minded and one is more defensively minded. If the attack minded one can't defend, he's a liability. If the defensive minded one can't attack, he's a liability. It makes for a one-dimensional team where one only one CM is dangerous, so the opposition is obviously going to try to take him out of the game. What you're left with is the limited one initiating offense, and it makes for crap offense.

[JohnDoe]

Apart from when Chelsea played Essien, or Arsenal had Gilberto?

Essien and Gilberto are not comparable with Lucas in their ability to play over the halfway line.

Id also point to Barcalona as a non PL example. Who are probably the best footballing side in the last 20 years.

Busequets and Yaya Toure before him are miles better players than Lucas, and are superb at moving the ball. Your example doesn't strengthen your argument.

Also, I am pretty sure that Lucas is good moving the ball about under pressure, and Ive seen him start more attacks off that I can remember. Just because he isnt 'Hollywood' like Adam, does not mean he is not key to the attacks starting. He wins the ball, moves it out to a wide player and an attack is started. Its not hard to notice if you look. But I suppose, if your not looking to see it, you will only see what you want.

It's nothing to do with Hollywood balls. That "attack" you've described is gash. So you get the ball to a wide player 50 yards from goal and that's how an attack is started? That's what Lucas does and it's not effective. It will never break down an organized defence, even if that side is inferior. He can't do anything against two lines of four. Nothing. That's my gripe with him, a third CB playing higher up the pitch.

[Buzzo]

Feel the need to quote this alone. This is the problem. A "defensive" midfielder is not a third CB playing higher up the pitch. If you're a man down over the halfway line (and we effectively are when Lucas is on the pitch and other side is not caught up), then our ability to create will be greatly reduced.

A central midfielder is a central midfielder. Obviously in a midfield pairing, on is more attack minded and one is more defensively minded. If the attack minded one can't defend, he's a liability. If the defensive minded one can't attack, he's a liability. It makes for a one-dimensional where one only one CM is dangerous, so the opposition is obviously going to try to take him out of the game. What you're left with is the limited one initiating offense, and it makes for crap offense.

Did Lucas shag your missus or something?

I'd say he is actually more offensive than a lot of DM's... Look at the number of chances he has created this season. A player like Mackelele was a true DM, didn't venture forward at all... yet he was still considered great.

[rudedog]

Johndoe, you are Ests1892's very own Pele - whatever you say about football, the exact opposite is usually true.