Lucas

[Tee]

But essentially it's a back 2, as our 2 FB's starting positions will often be ahead of the midfielders, which is why we need Lucas there covering. I was actually looking at a graphic for our players average position on the pitch and Johnson was the 3rd furthest advanced behind Sturridge and Coutinho, so to accommodate this we need a disciplined DM. Obviously there is no need for this insurance when we play 4 CB's, but that's hardly the player's fault as he just went about his business as normal, sweeping up and keeping things simple.

Erm, no its not. Its a back 4.

Yes the full backs push forward but every team in the PL has attacking full backs, its not an exclusive concept for us. We are over analysing here and IMO we lack a CM player who is able to put his foot on the ball and dictate the play.

[RedReet]

Erm, no its not. Its a back 4.

Yes the full backs push forward but every team in the PL has attacking full backs, its not an exclusive concept for us. We are over analysing here and IMO we lack a CM player who is able to put his foot on the ball and dictate the play.

I know you're just being pedantic, but it's hardly a shield in front a back 4, if 2 of the 4 spend most of the game ahead of the DM. Coupled with the fact that Agger is quite an attack minded CB, it can hardly be viewed as a negative system.

[Maxiedge]

But essentially it's a back 2, as our 2 FB's starting positions will often be ahead of the midfielders, which is why we need Lucas there covering. I was actually looking at a graphic for our players average position on the pitch and Johnson was the 3rd furthest advanced behind Sturridge and Coutinho, so to accommodate this we need a disciplined DM. Obviously there is no need for this insurance when we play 4 CB's, but that's hardly the player's fault as he just went about his business as normal, sweeping up and keeping things simple.

I would stick Henderson in with Lucas and move Gerrard into his own solitary position (like a number 10 or front 3). My problem is not necessarily with Lucas but the balance in midfield.

I've said it before, Gerrard is a maverick and I'd rather he was stuck out on the right crossing in dangerous balls rather than playing central and feeling constricted. Hence, his need to break out a few Hollywood passes here and there.

Also, I just have a feeling that Henderson and Lucas would work together well. There's just something about them that would connect. Both very selfless players. Just a feeling, like

[RedReet]

I would stick Henderson in with Lucas and move Gerrard into his own solitary position (like a number 10 or front 3). My problem is not necessarily with Lucas but the balance in midfield.

I've said it before, Gerrard is a maverick and I'd rather he was stuck out on the right crossing in dangerous balls rather than playing central and feeling constricted. Hence, his need to break out a few Hollywood passes here and there.

Also, I just have a feeling that Henderson and Lucas would work together well. There's just something about them that would connect. Both very selfless players. Just a feeling, like

Can't really disagree with that.

The only thing is, as soon as Lucas returned to the side last year, Gerrard stepped it up a gear, started getting forward and scoring again and generally played well alongside him. I'm not sure what has happened this year and although as a pair I don't think they've been as bad as some are making out, Gerrard seems to have retreated into his shell again and is playing like he did alongside Allen.

[Neil Young]

I don't think central midfield is perfect. I don't know whether that's due to the balance of qualities Gerrard and Lucas offer (a long term issue that some attribute to Lucas's limitations, others to Gerrard's) or simply because one or both players aren't in their best form (just a short-term problem). It's been evident in all the matches this season, although in the first three there were spells when the whole team played well. We've seen that drop off in the last two matches, especially on Saturday.

But I think the focus here is on the wrong area. Like I said earlier it's the full backs that have been the real area of weakness against Swansea and Southampton. Southampton's tactics were to press the ball and the full backs are crucial in dealing with that. Also Sturridge still doesn't seem fully fit and we've been without Coutinho. Aspas hasn't offered much as his replacement so we were inevitably light up front.

[RedReet]

We were always going to struggle badly when Johnson got injured, but also when after 5 games only one player has scored in the team I'm not sure the finger of blame should be pointed at our defensive 'er.

[Mattshark]

His passing is excellent and crisp, no problems there.

My problem is that we're designating a player as a shield in front of the back 4 but yet we seem so exposed on the break. I know he can't cover every area on the pitch but that's where he used to excel by spotting the danger and taking up good positions.

I'm assuming his 'tidying up' is not what it used to be since the injury and hence the recent flurries of posts in this thread.

I don't think we really have looked like we have problems against counter attacks.

[Maxiedge]

I don't think we really have looked like we have problems against counter attacks.

My point was more that we allow counter attacks to happen instead of ball retention (winning ball back) and keeping the pressure on.

[Big-Red-Ed]

That's just crap. People said the same about Allen in that role until someone actually analyzed his passes in depth and proved the majority went forward. Watch when Coutinho comes back how many of Lucas' passes are to him. If a player is in space ahead of him, Lucas will pick him out, if not, he'll look elsewhere for a free man whether they are beside him or behind him, as he should do. [/QUOTE]

You have actually just reiterated my point. If all Lucas can do is pass it to the guy that makes the key pass then we would be better off with the likes of Momo.

But as I have said for me it's more about the failure of the Gerrard Lucas pairing than a criticism of either.

[Tee]

I think maybe the issue is playing the three up top. Seems to me we need the extra body in CM, so I would look at changing the shape to something like this for the next league game:

--------------------------------Mignolet

Toure-------------Skrtel----------------------Agger--------------Enrique


Moses-------------Henderson-------------Lucas---------------Gerrard


-------------------------Suarez----------Sturridge--------------

[RedReet]

You have actually just reiterated my point. If all Lucas can do is pass it to the guy that makes the key pass then we would be better off with the likes of Momo.

But as I have said for me it's more about the failure of the Gerrard Lucas pairing than a criticism of either.

But that is his job. What are you expecting him to do?

[BobTheCharmer]

Bob is going to love that stat.

I really dislike this.

I did say he is the best short distance passer in the history of football.

Seriously though, I do like Lucas. I'm not advocating him leaving the club or anything. I just think his role rather than him is what I find frustrating. He sometimes wins the ball and gives it to someone more creative to start an attack. My problem with this role especially at home, is that it puts an enormous pressure on said creative player to perform and with the best will in the world they won't always be able to do this. So we then have an extra player in Lucas who isn't contributing in affecting the result in anyway.

I know and accept the 'game has moved on', but perhaps due to my age, I always remember our central midfield pairings being able to do a bit of both. Mcmahon, Souness, Whelan, Redknapp, Hamman, Alonso, Molby, all capable of putting their foot in, winning the ball, passing it 3 yards and occassionally grabbing a goal or at least setting the tempo.

But I may as well saved the typing and replaced with 'Redreet is right on everything'.

[Rich]

I really dislike this.

I did say he is the best short distance passer in the history of football.

Seriously though, I do like Lucas. I'm not advocating him leaving the club or anything. I just think his role rather than him is what I find frustrating. He sometimes wins the ball and gives it to someone more creative to start an attack. My problem with this role especially at home, is that it puts an enormous pressure on said creative player to perform and with the best will in the world they won't always be able to do this. So we then have an extra player in Lucas who isn't contributing in affecting the result in anyway.

I know and accept the 'game has moved on', but perhaps due to my age, I always remember our central midfield pairings being able to do a bit of both. Mcmahon, Souness, Whelan, Redknapp, Hamman, Alonso, Molby, all capable of putting their foot in, winning the ball, passing it 3 yards and occassionally grabbing a goal or at least setting the tempo.

But I may as well saved the typing and replaced with 'Redreet is right on everything'.

I think you're right the game has moved on, there are very few midfielders that can excel in both defence and attack.

I don't think the problem is Lucas, it is his partner.

[BobTheCharmer]

I think you're right the game has moved on, there are very few midfielders that can excel in both defence and attack.

I don't think the problem is Lucas, it is his partner.

The thing is I think Lucas is capable of being more positive. The more I write the more I realise it the 'role' he plays that frustrates me more than Lucas himself.

Again with the comment re his partner, whoever that may be, what happens when they have an off day? Lucas either isn't allowed, isn't capable or doesn't want to step up. That's where the role of sitting and breaking up play, especially at home is open to question. I guess its a trade off and there isn't a one formation fits all. Because even under Rafa's preferred system, we were often left failing at home to the likes of Southampton as we didn't commit enough men.

[Neil Young]

I think you're right the game has moved on, there are very few midfielders that can excel in both defence and attack.

I don't think the problem is Lucas, it is his partner.

I think that's crazy. First, Lucas is not the very best at his job - I think Mascherano was better at it than Lucas is as he was faster (or appeared to be). So if we had a better player there he would, by definition, do more than Lucas does. That can only strengthen the side.

Second if Lucas was able or allowed (it's not clear which) to do a bit more creatively then Gerrard would have to do a bit less. Gerrard is better defensively than most creative midfielders (Carrick for instance) so he already contributes more in that regard than many creative players. So it's feasible that Gerrard is making Lucas look good by helping him out while the reverse may not be the case.

I think the issue in central midfield is about balance. What I don't know is whether their "limitations" are imposed by the roles Rodgers has designated for them or by their own personal abilities and weaknesses.