Lucas

[danperkins]

For those who are going on about Lucas's game not changing to suit the Premier League:

For Gremio Lucas played with 2 DM's so he had the freedom to get forward and used used in a much more attacking role, hmmm did we not play with 2 DM's too? So then why did Lucas not get forward like he did for Gremio? Rafa signed him knowing well what type of player he was.

Direct Quotes from Rafa:

"I am looking forward to see him score goals for LFC"

So you think he was originally bought to be a holding midfielder considering Rafa bought him to "score goals"? Or the more realistic train of thought was that Rafa bought him, seen him train and play and decided "Ok hang on, this lad would be better in a more defensive position"? Rafa liked the 2 DM formation, Lucas was used there alot and was in no way used in an attacking role.

Now quotes from Lucas himself about how his game has changed since coming to LFC:

"My game has changed a lot since leaving Brazil. I was able to attack more at Gremio because I played with two defensive midfielders, In England you have more responsibility.

I'm in my favourite position now: I'm a second defensive midfielder, the one who is allowed to help the forwards when he gets an opportunity. My main strength is that I work hard for the team. I also think I'm a good marker, and I pass the ball well. But I need to improve my shooting and the attacking part of my game.

Even Lucas himself admits he has to improve the attacking part of his game, god forbid Rafa thought the same so played him more defensively!!.

So under Rafa and now Roy in his whole entire time at LFC, he himself has admitted that his game has changed alot. There is a big difference between playing in Brazil and playing in the Premier League, his game had to be adjusted to suit the league and his attributes, Lucas admits it and Rafa obviously seen it too.

[Arn]

I wouldn't have played him in general. Rafa bought him knowing his game better than you or me, and there were better players than Lucas in all the positions he could cover. If he was that good at attacking surely at this stage of his LFC career he would have got a proper shot in an attacking role? IS that not fair to say?

Lucas was an excellent signing because he could be used as a backup player to both Mascherano and Xabi, not only one of them. He isn't as good as anyone of them but he is excellent to have as a backup player.

Rafa didn't sign him to be a starting XI player straight away. He was bought as a backup player and done that role excellent.

If he had been bought to be a starting XI player straight away then it would have been different.

Judge him on what he is. That means an excellent backup central midfielder.

[RedReet]

[B]For those who are going on about Lucas's game not changing to suit the Premier League:[/B]

.

No one is saying that. We're saying he hasn't FAILED in a position he hasn't been aasked to play. Of course his game has changed, he was scoring goals in Brazil, but playing in a different position doesn't make you a failure, especially if it earns you International caps for Brazil.

[danperkins]

Fair point, what do I want, ha ha? Anyway, when you first joined you took every opportunity to give Lucas abuse. If anyone had anything to say about Lucas (good or bad), you just had to add your wee bit. It was incessant and predictable. That’s fair enough if you were venting frustration, everyone has the right to do that, but Lucas was actually one of our better players and you didn’t have as much to say about the other 20 or so players combined who were much worse than him over the course of the year.

Look no point in going on about it, gets us nowhere, but it did happen.



Was he not give a free role in one of the UEFA cup games and he played a blinder? The commentators who were slagging him beforehand saying he offers nothing going forward then had to take it back and of course blame Rafa for not taking the shackles off more often. Someone remind me, was it the Benfica game when he scored? My memory is ****.

I criticized the likes of Dosenna, Reira, Babel, Insua, Aqua (well the signing) more so than i criticized Lucas.

Like i said to you already in this thread, he has improved but improved from what exactly. And just because he has improved do i think he is good enough to be a starter in a successful LFC side? Not a chance. He is a starting because we have **** all other options there, i'm sure that will be remedied soon enough, well i hope so anyways.

He makes one or two burst forward, it was 100% the Benfica game when he scored. Thats was the type of role he played in Brazil, his game has been changed to suit his attributes in the Premier League. That was the point i was making with Craig and others.

Honest question mate, do you think he is good to be in the starting 11 if we want to challenge for the Champs League and League etc?

[Frenchie]

are you watching the same games as us?

[danperkins]

No one is saying that. We're saying he hasn't FAILED in a position he hasn't been aasked to play. Of course his game has changed, he was scoring goals in Brazil, but playing in a different position doesn't make you a failure, especially if it earns you International caps for Brazil.

And my point was that if he was that good at bursting forward and being a box to box, well then surely Rafa would have made him play this way instead of sitting deep and keeping it as simple as possible?

Rafa's quotes: "I am looking forward to seeing him score goals" , so what role does that suggest? Surely not the role of a DM who sits deep and keeps things as simple as possible, and doesn't get forward? hey i'm going on quotes from Player and manager.

IMO and going on Rafa's and Lucas's comments, Lucas was bought for a type of role, a more attacking holding midfielder so to speak (box to box) but it seems, actually no it happened. That Rafa changed his role
and for the better as it turned out.

And Lucas has played 6 or 7 times for Brazil, 3 or 4 friendlies and one game that i know of that Brazil had already qualified. Hardly a regular. Sure titans like Julio Baptista have played nearly 50 times for Brazil.

[danperkins]

Lucas was an excellent signing because he could be used as a backup player to both Mascherano and Xabi, not only one of them. He isn't as good as anyone of them but he is excellent to have as a backup player.

Rafa didn't sign him to be a starting XI player straight away. He was bought as a backup player and done that role excellent.

If he had been bought to be a starting XI player straight away then it would have been different.

Judge him on what he is. That means an excellent backup central midfielder.

100% agree with this, i have no problems whatsoever in Lucas being used as a back up player for the squad. Spot in IMO

[The Birdman]

Lucas is a much, much better player than a lot of ill informed idiots give him credit for.
Robbie Savage recently described him as 'the worst Brazilian midfielder' or something like that.

Robbie ****ing Savage criticising someone else for being ****???

It's about value for money, we paid £6m for Lucas, he is now 23 years old and a current full Brazilian International having started and played really well in the last couple of games for them, I would also wager that most reasonably minded Liverpool fans would say he's been in the top 3 or 4 players of the season for us so far

Is he irreplaceable? no probably not but he is also towards the bottom of the list of players I would want to see sold.

[The Birdman]

Danperkins - there was/is 1 small problem with your comments about why we haven't seen Lucas play the attacking midfield role with 2 sitting midfielders behind him and that is Steven Gerrard.
It happens to be the favoured position of our captain and best player (when he can be bothered)

[Kenneth]

And my point was that if he was that good at bursting forward and being a box to box, well then surely Rafa would have made him play this way instead of sitting deep and keeping it as simple as possible?

Rafa's quotes: "I am looking forward to seeing him score goals" , so what role does that suggest? Surely not the role of a DM who sits deep and keeps things as simple as possible, and doesn't get forward? hey i'm going on quotes from Player and manager.

IMO and going on Rafa's and Lucas's comments, Lucas was bought for a type of role, a more attacking holding midfielder so to speak (box to box) but it seems, actually no it happened. That Rafa changed his role
and for the better as it turned out.

And Lucas has played 6 or 7 times for Brazil, 3 or 4 friendlies and one game that i know of that Brazil had already qualified. Hardly a regular. Sure titans like Julio Baptista have played nearly 50 times for Brazil.

100% agree with this, i have no problems whatsoever in Lucas being used as a back up player for the squad. Spot in IMO

Well, in an extraordinary turn up for the books, Dan has make a coherent and convincing argument.

[danperkins]

Robbie Savage is an just there for comedic value, and i think Brazilian midfielders have changed over recent years, especially with the likes of Dunga in charge, when people hear "Brazil Football" they associate flair,craft,skill etc which are none of the attributes Lucas has. I've also heard many saying he is the most "UnBrazilan Brazilian they've seen" , someone said it very recently too on tv.

Brazil haven't won World Cup since 2002 because the European teams are better defensively and more solid. Dunga has tried to change Brazil and with likes of Gilberto,Melo etc tried to put some steel and get a solid work ethic into them, hasn't worked just yet but the way Brazil play the game of football has dramatically changed.

P.S. I just realized i went on a weird rant there, meh!

[danperkins]

Well, in an extraordinary turn up for the books, Dan has make a coherent and convincing argument.

why thank you kind sir

[danperkins]

Danperkins - there was/is 1 small problem with your comments about why we haven't seen Lucas play the attacking midfield role with 2 sitting midfielders behind him and that is Steven Gerrard.
It happens to be the favoured position of our captain and best player (when he can be bothered)

Better players ahead of him were of course a big reason why he didn't play and probably why is is playing so regularly over last season or so. I have zero problems with Lucas being a valuable squad player. But he was bought for a more attacking midfield role than he has and is playing for LFC in the last few years, that is very clear.

And now Masch and Alonso are a distant memory, still haven't seen Lucas played in an attacking midfield role,shock horror

Anyways Thanks to Rafa's & Lucas's comments we know why

[RedReet]

Honest question mate, do you think he is good to be in the starting 11 if we want to challenge for the Champs League and League etc?

Well I honestly thought we might win it last year, so I guess that would have to be a yes. Ideally I’d much prefer to have Masch and Xabi still here while he continues to learn his trade, but I honestly believe (you can check my posts from 3+ years ago) that if those around him played to their potential then Lucas could raise his game and shine. I’m not comparing him to Xabi, but if Lucas had Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Benni, Riera ahead of him playing as well as the did 2 years ago then people would have a much different opinion of him.

I’ve always said Lucas has the ability, he just needs more of a presence and more authority (I probably said confidence at the time). Bolton was a good sign, he was demanding the ball more than he usually does, but he still doesn’t seem to have the respect of some of his more senior team-mates (Gerrard, Carra). That’s why I like Meireles along side him. If Lucas is free Meireles will give it to him no problem. Gerrard will sometimes see him, look for the Hollywood ball first, then pass if no choice (likewise Carra with the hoof). I really do look forward to seeing Lucas in the team if Gerrard and Nando ever rediscover their mojo.

I fully expect him to have a nightmare against Chelsea now.

[danperkins]

Well I honestly thought we might win it last year, so I guess that would have to be a yes. Ideally I’d much prefer to have Masch and Xabi still here while he continues to learn his trade, but I honestly believe (you can check my posts from 3+ years ago) that if those around him played to their potential then Lucas could raise his game and shine. I’m not comparing him to Xabi, but if Lucas had Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Benni, Riera ahead of him playing as well as the did 2 years ago then people would have a much different opinion of him.

I’ve always said Lucas has the ability, he just needs more of a presence and more authority (I probably said confidence at the time). Bolton was a good sign, he was demanding the ball more than he usually does, but he still doesn’t seem to have the respect of some of his more senior team-mates (Gerrard, Carra). That’s why I like Meireles along side him. If Lucas is free Meireles will give it to him no problem. Gerrard will sometimes see him, look for the Hollywood ball first, then pass if no choice (likewise Carra with the hoof). I really do look forward to seeing Lucas in the team if Gerrard and Nando ever rediscover their mojo.

I fully expect him to have a nightmare against Chelsea now.

A fair post mate, even if we have contrasting views i'm more than happy to agree to disagree with regards Lucas

P.S. Lucas has been good last 2 games to be fair to the lad, lets hope that continues against Chelsea, dunno if i can take us getting our asses handed to us