Lucas

[red g]

Why is it deluded? Because you think so?
Why has Lucas got better passing stats? Why does he have better tackling stats?

I am pretty sure that most people would think so, but hey popular opinion is no judge is it

we have discussed this a million times with regards to stats. I think they are bollocks you will use them to tell everyone Lucas is a great player.

Cattermole is better becuase he is better in the air, he scores, he has a good range of passing, he is box to box, he has a hard as **** tackle, he is up for the battle,

I am sure you see Souness as the second coming of Souness, i see him as Jimmy carter's long lost son.

[dww]

Honestly dont understand what leads you to this conclusion. Seems a very random and odd viewpoint.

I would say that would be my general view of a deep lying midfielder unless they are a specialist DM in the style of Mascherano or Makelele. The role is to offer an out ball for the defence and defensive midfielder, to cover defensively allowing an attacking midfielder to play higher up and with more freedom and to cover the fullbacks. Essentially a link between the different lines in a 4-2-3-1 and related formations. I think you can do such things in many different ways and Lucas obviously has a very different balance to someone like Alonso.

[Mattshark]

Reading into stats is false in itself matt, as many of us know from watching Lucas in every game he has played most of his passing are 5-10 yard sideways or backward passes that any 12 year old kid could do. I'm not getting into the whole stats debate again, so many people disagreed with you over it and as far as i'm concerned point was well proven, but take it and run if you will i have no problem in debating or chatting but with regards to that stats its just flogging a dead horse and its a very naive approach relying on stats when the evidence is in the performances.

That is because you clearly don't understand stats.
The stats clearly show in this case that you claim is wrong, you are now simply asking for them to be disregarded because they don't agree with you.
Popular opinion is of little value.
I am not just relying on stats (as I have said many times and you seem to ignore, stats need to be used in context, in this case, you said he doesn't tackle well, well stats show that not to be the case), however, I think you will find that simply watching something alone is not good evidence of anything, anecdotal evidence is subject to so many confounding factors that it becomes unreliable. This is more than well evidenced.

Em yeah he was with Charlton for 7 years mate, and he was good for Newcastle just injury prone and has been excellent for West Ham, he only made 15 appearances at Chelsea and for just one season and couldn't get ahead of Essien and co. no shame in that?. So basically what your saying is that since 1997 Parker has had one bad season?

He was good at Charlton and West Ham, playing at those clubs is very different to playing at Liverpool.

Em and what has Lucas had? One average season and if you watched Flamini which you obviously haven't he came to Arsenal as a kid (just like Lucas) and was used as a utility player as Arsenal had bad injuries and when he was used in his favored position he was not not just good he was the best defensive midfielder in the league, his problem was not talent it was greed.

Lucas has had one season in our first team and was one of our better players last season.

No mate performance is fact.

No actually, you opinion on a performance is just that, opinion.

Lucas doesn't use posession as much as most other players, safety first which is where productivity in our team goes up the ****ter. If you don't use it you don't lose it

But he does use it. His role isn't to make goals, it it to win the ball back and give to others to make goals.

Thats what i said? We were merely comparing styles before you took it elsewhere.

And you were using that as an argument against Lucas which is ridiculous.

If we are playing 2 DM's in any game we need one who is good on the ball and who is versatile enough to create and defend like Alonso was, as we seen last season if we play 2 DM's i.e Masch/Lucas it means zero creativity in our midfield when neither are capable of distributing possession to the front line and the midfield breaks down. Zero creativity in the middle of the park, predictable approach and the same end product which is the inability to break any team down, especially ones that sit deep.

And Lucas is good on the ball, he is not as good as Alonso, but that doesn't mean he isn't good. And contrary to the popular myth, Lucas' passes are not all 5-10 yard balls that just go back wards and sideways.

[danperkins]

Hes not top class granted but he will get better. Hes had a lot of **** thrown at him and stuck at it, hes a kid lets remember that.

He's 23 mate

[dww]

I think this may actually be the most repetitious argument in internet history. I for one are thoroughly ashamed of contributing to it.

[Mattshark]

I am pretty sure that most people would think so, but hey popular opinion is no judge is it

we have discussed this a million times with regards to stats. I think they are bollocks you will use them to tell everyone Lucas is a great player.

Cattermole is better becuase he is better in the air, he scores, he has a good range of passing, he is box to box, he has a hard as **** tackle, he is up for the battle,

I am sure you see Souness as the second coming of Souness, i see him as Jimmy carter's long lost son.

No, it isn't, I suggest you look up the term Argumentum ad Populum.

Cattermole scored 0 goals last season. Lucas scored more goals last season than Cattermole did and he scored more goals than Cattermole the season before too.

I see Souness as the second coming of Souness hey.

[red g]

He's 23 mate

thats a kid to me

[Mattshark]

Bull****, will never happen.

[Mattshark]

This comment should be the end of the conversation, no disrespect but seriously mate common thats horribly rose tinted IMO!

Why? Because you don't agree?

[red g]

No, it isn't, I suggest you look up the term Argumentum ad Populum.

Cattermole scored 0 goals last season.

I see Souness as the second coming of Souness hey.

i suggest you look up the term parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus
sums lucas up.

[red g]

No, it isn't, I suggest you look up the term Argumentum ad Populum.

Cattermole scored 0 goals last season. Lucas scored more goals last season than Cattermole did and he scored more goals than Cattermole the season before too.

I see Souness as the second coming of Souness hey.

Ok Matt can you point me to Lucas stats please?

tackling and passing. cheers

[danperkins]

That is because you clearly don't understand stats.
The stats clearly show in this case that you claim is wrong, you are now simply asking for them to be disregarded because they don't agree with you.
Popular opinion is of little value.
I am not just relying on stats (as I have said many times and you seem to ignore, stats need to be used in context, in this case, you said he doesn't tackle well, well stats show that not to be the case), however, I think you will find that simply watching something alone is not good evidence of anything, anecdotal evidence is subject to so many confounding factors that it becomes unreliable. This is more than well evidenced.

It is just you opinion not fact.

He was good at Charlton and West Ham, playing at those clubs is very different to playing at Liverpool.

Same standard of opposition, pressure may differ but decade player at top level, give him some credit.

Lucas has had one season in our first team and was one of our better players last season.

Considering 90% of the team were appalling last season i wouldn't read into that, although you will.

But he does use it. His role isn't to make goals, it it to win the ball back and give to others to make goals.

In your opinion he uses it, most seem to disagree with you and he got 2 assists in the entire league campaign, he does not give it to others to score goals, that is not just make opinion thats stats mate

And you were using that as an argument against Lucas which is ridiculous.

In your opinion

And Lucas is good on the ball, he is not as good as Alonso, but that doesn't mean he isn't good. And contrary to the popular myth, Lucas' passes are not all 5-10 yard balls that just go back wards and sideways.

I your opinion he is good on the ball, and he is not even in the same vacinty as being as good as Alonso lets make that abundantly clear.

I'll tell you what seen as you think Lucas is such a good passer, you should do a survey on here and see how many people think most of Lucas's passes give or take a few degrees of angle, are safe and short passes and do not contribute anything in a positive going forward?

[red g]

One mans view..............

Karl Henry v Lucas

Stats after 18 games of the season.................

Lucas is the bottom stat in each stat



Season 2009-10
Henry Lucas
Fouls won and / conceded / % won
25 /22 /53%
25 /33 /43%

Tackles won and / lost / % won
29/5 /85%
49/23/68%

Accurate passes % / Attacks created
79% / 11
86% /18

Goals / Assists / Shots on goal
0 /0 / 1
0 / 1 /5


I will now analyse and interpret these statistics and see if there are something interesting to conclude about the players and their respective teams.


Fouls: Henry still wins more fouls than he conceives. But in the last matches he has gone from 65% won to 53% and conceived ten, but only gained three fouls. It looks as he has become a tougher playing midfielder. But Lucas conceives even more fouls than Henry, but he wins exactly the same amount.

Tackles: But in tackles Henry excels as ever. One percent better than before the Chelsea game. Lucas is more average in this area, and it is maybe understandable that the Anfield crowd does not take him to their hearts.

Passes and Attacks: Passing skills are important for midfielders and Henry is one of the best passers in Wolves. With 79% accurate passes he has gone down two percentages from the last time I measured this, but it’s still very good. Lucas excels here with 86% passes going to a team mate.

Henry has started eleven attacks. He has managed only to launch one attack in the last five games he has played, saying us that he probably has a more defensive role today than in the beginning of the season. That can have something to do with the fact that Nenad Milijas is playing beside him in a more forward going role today. Milijas has created 17 attacks in his 12 appearances. Lucas has created 18 attacks despite being played mainly as a defensive midfielder. The one playing beside him, Mascherano, now injured, has created 16 attacks. The thought comes to mind reading the stats, that Liverpool perhaps does not have midfielders that take responsibility for the defence in this seasons team.

Goals, Assists and Shots on goal: Defensive midfielder should not go forward that much, and Henry does not. No goals or assists and one shot at goal in five tries. It’s exactly the same figures as five games ago. Lucas is more forward going but has made no goals this season and only one assist. But he has managed to shoot five times at goal out of 16 tries.

Conclusions: Lucas does not meet the demands for a defensive midfielder of a top four team when it comes to tackles and conceiving fouls in my opinion. He is, though, very good at passing the ball. When it comes to his actions going forward he creates attacks but does not seem to be especially gifted when it comes to assisting or scoring goals.

I think Henry is the better of the two when it comes to defending. And I think it’s the right thing to do that Wolves now are playing Herny in a more defensive role with Milijas in the team. I have a growing suspicion that Liverpool are playing with a team that don’t have the players to defend and that the back four will be more exposed to attacks than previous seasons because of this.

Of the two I would choose Henry without ever looking back. Especially as it seems that I can get nearly 30 Henrys’s for one Lucas!

[Mattshark]

Ok Matt can you point me to Lucas stats please?

tackling and passing. cheers

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2705370,00.html

[danperkins]

Why? Because you don't agree?

Haha your like a dog with a bone on this, if i say something or disagree with you, you just say "thats your opinion" or "Why is it wrong, because you don't agree"

From what i can gather your a Lucas fan, you have your opinions about him, you use stats to try and prove a point , but the real stats are in the stats which unless you have monitors percentages and degree's of angles of every single one of Lucas's passes, none of us are going to know exactly the number of yards he passed it and the point of angle?

So we use our eyes to judge a players performance first and foremost (which you say is bull****) but every single football fan,manager,coach,scout,pundit and media etc does exactly the same thing, but i suppose you are correct and everyone else is all wrong.

And Its just your opinion too mate, remember that before you try and pull that card again.