Lucas

[danperkins]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...705370,00.html

Now point us to the stats that show a break down of those stats so we can truly read into them and talk about it ? % of the percentages and degree's of the passing? If you truly believe in the stats well then these surely too must matter to you?

BTW Barry Ferguson is the best passer in the league, better than Cesc,Lampard,Gerrard etc no brainer really, oh so is Mascherano and we all know how good at passing he is haha

[Will]

One mans view..............

Karl Henry v Lucas

Stats after 18 games of the season.................

Lucas is the bottom stat in each stat



Season 2009-10
Henry Lucas
Fouls won and / conceded / % won
25 /22 /53%
25 /33 /43%

Tackles won and / lost / % won
29/5 /85%
49/23/68%

Accurate passes % / Attacks created
79% / 11
86% /18

Goals / Assists / Shots on goal
0 /0 / 1
0 / 1 /5


I will now analyse and interpret these statistics and see if there are something interesting to conclude about the players and their respective teams.


Fouls: Henry still wins more fouls than he conceives. But in the last matches he has gone from 65% won to 53% and conceived ten, but only gained three fouls. It looks as he has become a tougher playing midfielder. But Lucas conceives even more fouls than Henry, but he wins exactly the same amount.

Tackles: But in tackles Henry excels as ever. One percent better than before the Chelsea game. Lucas is more average in this area, and it is maybe understandable that the Anfield crowd does not take him to their hearts.

Passes and Attacks: Passing skills are important for midfielders and Henry is one of the best passers in Wolves. With 79% accurate passes he has gone down two percentages from the last time I measured this, but it’s still very good. Lucas excels here with 86% passes going to a team mate.

Henry has started eleven attacks. He has managed only to launch one attack in the last five games he has played, saying us that he probably has a more defensive role today than in the beginning of the season. That can have something to do with the fact that Nenad Milijas is playing beside him in a more forward going role today. Milijas has created 17 attacks in his 12 appearances. Lucas has created 18 attacks despite being played mainly as a defensive midfielder. The one playing beside him, Mascherano, now injured, has created 16 attacks. The thought comes to mind reading the stats, that Liverpool perhaps does not have midfielders that take responsibility for the defence in this seasons team.

Goals, Assists and Shots on goal: Defensive midfielder should not go forward that much, and Henry does not. No goals or assists and one shot at goal in five tries. It’s exactly the same figures as five games ago. Lucas is more forward going but has made no goals this season and only one assist. But he has managed to shoot five times at goal out of 16 tries.

Conclusions: Lucas does not meet the demands for a defensive midfielder of a top four team when it comes to tackles and conceiving fouls in my opinion. He is, though, very good at passing the ball. When it comes to his actions going forward he creates attacks but does not seem to be especially gifted when it comes to assisting or scoring goals.

I think Henry is the better of the two when it comes to defending. And I think it’s the right thing to do that Wolves now are playing Herny in a more defensive role with Milijas in the team. I have a growing suspicion that Liverpool are playing with a team that don’t have the players to defend and that the back four will be more exposed to attacks than previous seasons because of this.

Of the two I would choose Henry without ever looking back. Especially as it seems that I can get nearly 30 Henrys’s for one Lucas!

Lucas isn't a destroyer Henry is. I expected Henry's tackling rate to be higher and passing rate to be lower. Cattermole is a destroyer not a ball player, and if anything he should replace Mascherano and not Lucas.

[Mattshark]

It is just you opinion not fact.

One that is backed up by **** loads of evidence.

Same standard of opposition, pressure may differ but decade player at top level, give him some credit.

Pressure and the way opposition line up is a major factor.

Considering 90% of the team were appalling last season i wouldn't read into that, although you will.

And that is not Lucas' fault, so that shouldn't be held against him.

In your opinion he uses it, most seem to disagree with you and he got 2 assists in the entire league campaign, he does not give it to others to score goals, that is not just make opinion thats stats mate

Again, popular opinion is irrelevant, when will you learn that?
So, Alonso never got many assist either, you don't get a lot of assists from DM.

In your opinion

So you think that because he doesn't lunge into tackles that don't look as good, that should be held against him?

I your opinion he is good on the ball, and he is not even in the same vacinty as being as good as Alonso lets make that abundantly clear.

No he is not as good on the ball as Alonso, but he isn't Alonso and should be judged on his merits, not Alonso's.

I'll tell you what seen as you think Lucas is such a good passer, you should do a survey on here and see how many people think most of Lucas's passes give or take a few degrees of angle, are safe and short passes and do not contribute anything in a positive going forward?

Why? Popular opinion is still irrelevant.

[Mattshark]

Haha your like a dog with a bone on this, if i say something or disagree with you, you just say "thats your opinion" or "Why is it wrong, because you don't agree"

From what i can gather your a Lucas fan, you have your opinions about him, you use stats to try and prove a point , but the real stats are in the stats which unless you have monitors percentages and degree's of angles of every single one of Lucas's passes, none of us are going to know exactly the number of yards he passed it and the point of angle?

So we use our eyes to judge a players performance first and foremost (which you say is bull****) but every single football fan,manager,coach,scout,pundit and media etc does exactly the same thing, but i suppose you are correct and everyone else is all wrong.

And Its just your opinion too mate, remember that before you try and pull that card again.

**** off, you made the ****ty comment. If you don't like the reply do one.

[IN_RAFA_WE_TRUST]

FFS. I came here expecting us to be linked with buying the best players in the world and what i get is three pages about lucas is good lucas is ****.
I thought there was a lucas thread somewhere on this forum?

[Mattshark]

Now point us to the stats that show a break down of those stats so we can truly read into them and talk about it ? % of the percentages and degree's of the passing? If you truly believe in the stats well then these surely too must matter to you?

BTW Barry Ferguson is the best passer in the league, better than Cesc,Lampard,Gerrard etc no brainer really, oh so is Mascherano and we all know how good at passing he is haha

No Feguson is the most prolific passer in the league, there is a difference.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/create

[Craig_H]

Lucas isn't a destroyer Henry is. I expected Henry's tackling rate to be higher and passing rate to be lower. Cattermole is a destroyer not a ball player, and if anything he should replace Mascherano and not Lucas.

That's the point, Lucas is neither a destroyer nor a creative.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

[Bender]

Lucas is average at Best

[Fernandinho]

Do you ever wonder if the only reason that Lucas made so many Tackles and so many Passes has something to do with the fact that our two deap lying mids never created many attacking movements and so the ball regularly came back into the middle and they would make another tackle and make another short pass and the cycle continues. matt will say this is because of the people ahead of them, but they are generally the same people who were ahead of Alonso the season before last...

[red g]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...705370,00.html

thought so.....those stats are absolute bollocks!!!

the onl thing they prove is that lucas has the 4th best passing percentage out of those 5 and also he played **** loads of games .......lets look at the evidence.

Total passing list

1 Barry Ferguson Birmingham City 2168
2 Javier Mascherano Liverpool 2115
3 Frank Lampard Chelsea 1923
4 John Terry Chelsea 1906
5 Lucas Leiva Liverpool 1832
6 Francesc Fabregas Arsenal 1784
7 Gareth Barry Manchester City 1772
8 Jamie Carragher Liverpool 1753
9 Tom Huddlestone Tottenham Hotspur 1727
10 Darren Fletcher Manchester United 1725
11 Steven Gerrard Liverpool 1702
12 Patrice Evra Manchester United 1643
13 Michael Ballack Chelsea 1627
14 Paul Scholes Manchester United 1616
15 Bacary Sagna Arsenal 1605
16 Dirk Kuyt Liverpool 1558
17 Vasiriki Abou Diaby Arsenal 1545
18 Michael Carrick Manchester United 1524
19 James Milner Aston Villa 1514
20 Scott Parker West Ham United 1507


case study1
Darren fletcher v Lucas leiva
fletcher played 30 games = 57.5 passes per game
lucas played 35 games = 52.34 passes per game

if fletcher had played 5 more games he would be in top 3

case sudy 2
Scott parker v Lucas leiva
Parker played 18 games = 83.72 passes per game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyway you see my point.

All this proves is lucas plays a lot.......well done matt, hardly needed a statiscian for that.


I would do the same for tackling to, but think i have proved my point

[danperkins]

One that is backed up by **** loads of evidence

No its back up by Opta Stats, which also say Barry Fergusonand Masch are better passers of a ball than the likes of Cesc, Gerrard and Lampard, so i'll let you mull that one over.

Pressure and the way opposition line up is a major factor

Yup and parker has been playing against that opposition in the premier league for long time and seems to have faired out quite well, but thats just my opinion, or no its yours too

And that is not Lucas' fault, so that shouldn't be held against him

No your confusing me with someone else who actually judges players with their own eyes and on their own merits

Again, popular opinion is irrelevant, when will you learn that?
So, Alonso never got many assist either, you don't get a lot of assists from DM.

Everyone's wrong mate, your right.

So you think that because he doesn't lunge into tackles that don't look as good, that should be held against him?

Where did i say that?

No he is not as good on the ball as Alonso, but he isn't Alonso and should be judged on his merits, not Alonso's.

And thats exactly what people do mate, with their own eyes.

Why? Popular opinion is still irrelevant.

Your right and everyone else is wrong


This is boring mate, your pissing against the wind. This must be painful for others to read, and kind of repetitive so i'm going to stop replying the the points we've discussed 10 times over if ya don't mind.

[red g]

oh and here is the list of top 10 fannies in tackles ( tackles lost)

1 Mohamed Diamé Wigan Athletic 51
2 Fabrice Muamba Bolton Wanderers 50
3 Lucas Leiva Liverpool 46
4 Stilian Petrov Aston Villa 34
5 Javier Mascherano Liverpool 34
6 Hendry Thomas Wigan Athletic 34
7 Radoslav Kovac West Ham United 33
8 Scott Dann Birmingham City 32
9 Lorik Cana Sunderland 31
10 Wilson Palacios


weird how lucas comes near top of that as well

[danperkins]

thought so.....those stats are absolute bollocks!!!

the onl thing they prove is that lucas has the 4th best passing percentage out of those 5 and also he played **** loads of games .......lets look at the evidence.

Total passing list

1 Barry Ferguson Birmingham City 2168
2 Javier Mascherano Liverpool 2115
3 Frank Lampard Chelsea 1923
4 John Terry Chelsea 1906
5 Lucas Leiva Liverpool 1832
6 Francesc Fabregas Arsenal 1784
7 Gareth Barry Manchester City 1772
8 Jamie Carragher Liverpool 1753
9 Tom Huddlestone Tottenham Hotspur 1727
10 Darren Fletcher Manchester United 1725
11 Steven Gerrard Liverpool 1702
12 Patrice Evra Manchester United 1643
13 Michael Ballack Chelsea 1627
14 Paul Scholes Manchester United 1616
15 Bacary Sagna Arsenal 1605
16 Dirk Kuyt Liverpool 1558
17 Vasiriki Abou Diaby Arsenal 1545
18 Michael Carrick Manchester United 1524
19 James Milner Aston Villa 1514
20 Scott Parker West Ham United 1507


case study1
Darren fletcher v Lucas leiva
fletcher played 30 games = 57.5 passes per game
lucas played 35 games = 52.34 passes per game

if fletcher had played 5 more games he would be in top 3

case sudy 2
Scott parker v Lucas leiva
Parker played 18 games = 83.72 passes per game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyway you see my point.

All this proves is lucas plays a lot.......well done matt, hardly needed a statiscian for that.


I would do the same for tackling to, but think i have proved my point

Love it this guy is a legend

[danperkins]

oh and here is the list of top 10 fannies in tackles ( tackles lost)

1 Mohamed Diamé Wigan Athletic 51
2 Fabrice Muamba Bolton Wanderers 50
3 Lucas Leiva Liverpool 46
4 Stilian Petrov Aston Villa 34
5 Javier Mascherano Liverpool 34
6 Hendry Thomas Wigan Athletic 34
7 Radoslav Kovac West Ham United 33
8 Scott Dann Birmingham City 32
9 Lorik Cana Sunderland 31
10 Wilson Palacios


weird how lucas comes near top of that as well

[Craig_H]

oh and here is the list of top 10 fannies in tackles ( tackles lost)

1 Mohamed Diamé Wigan Athletic 51
2 Fabrice Muamba Bolton Wanderers 50
3 Lucas Leiva Liverpool 46
4 Stilian Petrov Aston Villa 34
5 Javier Mascherano Liverpool 34
6 Hendry Thomas Wigan Athletic 34
7 Radoslav Kovac West Ham United 33
8 Scott Dann Birmingham City 32
9 Lorik Cana Sunderland 31
10 Wilson Palacios


weird how lucas comes near top of that as well

You've out-statted statto