Lucas

[Mattshark]

How do you think Mascherano does the same role, in comparison?

I think Mascherano is a better defensive midfielder.

[Craig_H]

That's a bit like proclaiming water to be wet

[Mattshark]

Alonso could create goals 40 yards from goal just with his incredible vision and passing range. Lucas doesn't have that. If he could drive and get into the box, it might have made up for that, but he doesn't have that either. In other words, he's pointless and redundant. You could make a case for him to be a purely defensive midfielder, but there are other players better and stronger than him in that role.

Nonsense, you are making a ridiculous and unfair comparison to Alonso there.

Lucas does actually make runs into the box and it has been something that has increased in his game.

Who? That we can afford and that isn't Mascherano who wants to leave.

[Mattshark]

That's a bit like proclaiming water to be wet

Well it was you who asked the question.

[Taxi]

Aye, cos if even one person in the world thinks Lucas is better than average (be that Rafa, or Lucas himself) then I win

Taxi mate, I'm not up for a long drawn out debate like some would be (hell it's been done to death RE Lucas on this site!), I just don't agree with your opinion on this one.

Just found this post, that was after about 10 pints! Still, I'm quite impressed with my spelling.

I still think he's an average player though and I do believe he won't be here in a year or two.

[Craig_H]

Nonsense, you are making a ridiculous and unfair comparison to Alonso there.

Why is it unfair to compare two players who played in the same position?

[kris90210]

I have my doubts about Lucas. But I'd like to see how he does under Hodgeson's guidance. He's shown a lot of improvement in the past 12 months, if he can continue to improve there's no reason why he can't become an important part of the first team. Big, big season for Lucas.

[Mattshark]

Why is it unfair to compare two players who played in the same position?

Because they are not the same player and they don't play the same. On top of that Alonso is one of the best midfielder's in the world, you are being ridiculous if you expect a young player to come into the team and play the same way and as well.

[danperkins]

I know people who say Lucas is a good player, not that popular opinion is any sort of worthwhile judge anyway.

And the bits about only 5 yard passes and nicking some balls are demonstrably false. He is a very good tackler, he rarely gives the ball away and he is a good passer (not in the Alonso sense, but that is a ridiculously unfair comparison).

And to say he is a failed box to box midfielder when he has not been used in that role is a nonsense.

I have to disagree mate Lucas is more of a DM thats nicks the balls of people more so than a tackler like Masch.

It wasn't a direct comparion of them as such mate, but at the end of the day Lucas is replacing them so "he will" be compared to them and rightly so, Lucas is no where near as good as Masch or Alonso who are completely contrasting holding midfielders, Lucas is the category in between.

And "he is" is failed box to box midfielder, as he wasn't good enough in that position, he was making lots of mistakes so Rafa changed his role, now that mate is a fact, it happened and rafa commented on this himself.

You are obviously a fan of Lucas and thats fair enough, we are all interesting in what is good for LFC, if you think that Lucas in our starting 11 is good for LFC, well i think that is shocking and IMO Lucas in the starting line up is detrimental to our club.

[danperkins]

Because they are not the same player and they don't play the same. On top of that Alonso is one of the best midfielder's in the world, you are being ridiculous if you expect a young player to come into the team and play the same way and as well.

So what if he is young mate he still is playing for LFC, and he still bears the responsibility that Alonso and Masch have and that any other player playing for Liverpool Football Club have. So saying he's young is ridiculous and he's 23 mate he ain't that young anymore, he is a DM who is replacing another DM and of course they will be compared, like anyone else.

[badpiggy]

Why is it unfair to compare two players who played in the same position?

It's a weird modern-day obsession with defensive midfielders and their supposed roles. If you've got Mascherano beside you, it's ridiculous to NOT expect the other midfielders to be a bit more creative.

Some people seem to have bought into this idea that it's OK to be a midfielder who wins the ball to play it to someone who then creates something - 1 extra pointless step if you ask me. Xabi has the ability to win it and create something. Unless Lucas was coached to do **** all except break up play - which I think was a possibility - it's totally fair to compare him to both Mascherano and Alonso and in a comparison between the 3, Xabi is head and shoulders above both.

And I like Lucas actually and think he closes off space very well. works very hard and has a fairly decent short passing game. And I think there may be more to his game depending on the role he's asked to perform.

[JohnDoe]

Nonsense, you are making a ridiculous and unfair comparison to Alonso there.

Why is it unfair? I don't understand this. Alonso was a class player and is the kind of quality player who should be playing for this club. If you want to make a case for Lucas as a first team player for us, don't start crying when I compare him to previous central midfielders who have played for this club and have done well.

It's as if all the Lucas fans know in their hearts that he's not good enough, but can't seem to admit it. You'll say I'm wrong until you're blue in the face, yet you still admit that Lucas is not, and will not be as good as other players who are good enough.

It's just pointless chin scratching analysis making the issue more complex than he is. Lucas isn't good enough, period. He's not in the quality of Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Hamann, Gary Mac... those players are/were top quality. Lucas isn't close to that tier. He's a Danny Murphy at best, and it might be an insult to Murphy as the guy could actually shoot the ball with power and get some goals.

If we had Carlton Cole as our first choice striker instead of Torres, would people be saying "Yeah, Carlton Cole isn't a top quality striker, but you know, he's a bit good, and well, I like him, and you shouldn't be saying he's ****... because, he wins a lot of headers. His header winning percentage is top 3 in the league etc."

Lucas does actually make runs into the box and it has been something that has increased in his game.

Yet he's got nothing to show for it. No goals, 2 assists all season.

Who? That we can afford and that isn't Mascherano who wants to leave.

According to Hodgson, Poulsen.

According to me? Cattermole (as a DM), Ireland (as a CM)... ****, I'd take a fit Jimmy Bullard over Lucas any day.

[Craig_H]

Because they are not the same player and they don't play the same. On top of that Alonso is one of the best midfielder's in the world, you are being ridiculous if you expect a young player to come into the team and play the same way and as well.

I dont see why it is ridiculous to compare a player we once had, with one we have now, and try to aspire to reach the same levels of quality.

[Mattshark]

I have to disagree mate Lucas is more of a DM thats nicks the balls of people more so than a tackler like Masch.

But he is factually one of the most prolific tacklers in the league.

It wasn't a dirct comparion of them as such mate, but at the end of the day Lucas is replacing them so "he will" be compared to them and rightly so, Lucas is no where near as good as Masch or Alonso who are completely contrasting holding midfielders, Lucas is the category in between.

And that doesn't make the comparison or expectation and more worthwhile.
Tell me, which holding midfielder that we can afford do you think is better than Lucas?

And "he is" is failed box to box midfielder, as he wasn't good enough in that position, he was making lots of mistakes so Rafa changed his role, now that mate is a fact, it happened and rafa commented on this himself.

That isn't a fact, that is your opinion on what Rafa has said.

You are obviously a fan of Lucas and thats fair enough, but at the end of the day we are all interesting in what is good for LFC, you you think that Lucas in our starting 11 is good for LFC well then that in itself is detrimental to the team IMO.

Why? He doesn't lose the ball, he is a good tackler, he is a good passer and unlike our only other DM, he doesn't want to leave.
How is me thinking Lucas is good enough to player for us detrimental to LFC, what an utter ridiculous thing to say.

[Mattshark]

I dont see why it is ridiculous to compare a player we once had, with one we have now, and try to aspire to reach the same levels of quality.

Because they are different types of player.