Rafa Watch

[Tee]

Hang on, I'm going to take issue with that, not the first time you've said something like that in this thread. Why is anyone who doesn't want him back a "cunt"? That attitude, with all due respect, is ****ing terrible.

I get told an awful lot that Rafa gets a lot of undue stick from fans, that people don't give him enough respect and don't understand his achievements etc. Yet all I ever seem to read on here is people who, quite reasonably and rationally, say that they respect what he achieved but they also feel he had some faults and would rather we moved on, get jumped on and called c*nts. It actually really winds me up, especially as half the people who champion him now were people who I know for a fact were nowhere near as supportive of him during the final year of his tenure at the club. I have no desire at all to start pulling up old posts, but some of the revisionist stuff I read on here at times makes me want to.... and I was a fan of the guy ffs.

Seriously, great manager who had a great relationship with the fans, but he wasn't perfect by any means and it kinda makes me a bit sick to see people so willing to criticise players like Gerrard & Carra, who have given their whole careers to the club, and all sorts of other people, just to push their pro-Rafa agendas. Why can't there be some shades of grey in these debates, why can't we triumph Rafa's achievements while admitting his faults, included in which were, on occasion (and especially after Pako left), man management of some players. Hell on its very own, falling out with Pako was one of his biggest mistakes at LFC imo.

/rant

Spot on.

[Rich]

Is this known as fact? I used to get annoyed with Arn because he held this belief as gospel truth. But ive never really seen anything to say it for sure. Only really internet talk.

Not saying its not the case.

Fact? No.

Rumour? Yes.

But I'm convinced they were involved, getting all pally with Purslow.

[Shaggy]

People tend to completely dismiss it and ridicule the notion simply because it's never been categorically proven. IMO it's fairly clear what went off and I don't need to go into why.

[MrMichael]

I only critise Gerrard and Carragher for their role in ousting Benitez.

As Alex said, we don't know the details around that. And even if they did, isn't it possible they had some element of validity to their viewpoint? After all, they were managed & coached by the guy for years. Coming near the end of their careers, desperate to win things, do you think they would really have sabotaged a guy they felt could bring more success to the club they love?

I'm not saying they were right (if they had a part in it), but why does nobody consider that possibly, given their much more in depth inside knowledge than any of us could ever have, they might have had reason? Its hardly like they were the only players who might have had issues with Benitez over the years.

Thing is, there was a perfectly valid viewpoint that Rafa's time at Anfield was up towards the end of that last season. As I said before, I know for a cast iron fact that many people posting in this thread were at least ambivalent about it, emotionally wanting him to stay but logically seeing why he could go. In the end legitimate hatred of H&G altered that a bit (and what happened after with the Bodge), but on the pitch we were underperforming consistently in his last season and there was a common feeling that things might have passed the point of no return even putting the off field issues to one side. So whatever the truth of it, and whatever the rights of it, its not like Gerrard and Carra if they did play a role were completely coming out of left field.

Completely agree, considering writing something similar lately. I think it's a shame, and slightly ruins the memory of the man for me, that you can't be allowed to have a nuanced picture of the man without being put in the "Rafa haters category" (perhaps a bit harsh). It's a continuation from the time Rafa left us, where everybody was either put in the "RCDNW-brigade" or the "Rafa-haters" - and just seeing how the debate about his time here spurs the very same yet again is enough for me to not want him back - can't stand that anymore. I rate Rafa highly, but can also see (some) of his faults he made during his time here, and I don't understand why that is such a "vile" thing?

Absolutely

[Shaggy]

If Gerrard & Carragher were so concerned about our under-performance that season, I can only imagine what they must be feeling now.

[Shaggy]

BTW Darkon's and Mr Mr's stance is obviously fine, but there is a lot of venom reserved for Benitez by plenty of our own and it is that which is so utterly inexplicable. He is loathed by some of our own (just go on TLW) and I know in person Reds who by their own admission can't stand him and would "give it all up if he came back". That includes ST holders and armchair fans.

It's that attitude which I found completely and utterly incredible.

[badpiggy]

There is without doubt a lot of revisionist jumping on the Rafa bandwagon. I look back on his time as a mixed bag - the football was far from exciting a lot of the time but it wasso effective in Europe that the excitement came from big CL nights. And I'm not sure who's complaining about 2 DMs - Xabi and Mascher were pretty good together and could potentially have been amazing but I never got the eulogising of Mascher and Lucas together. They were 2 very negative midfielders and contributed to lots of the distress we all experienced in Rafa's last year when our performances were turgid regularly.


I know loads of people were praising Lucas during Rafa's last year but he really has only come into his own since Rafa left. Whether you give credit to Rafa for this or not will depend on your view of Rafa, which will be a bit different now than it was when he was here for lots of people.

Bottome line - losing Xabi was the single biggest player loss we've had in decades

[Tee]

For me Gerrard lost any credibility in terms of football knowledge/judgement when he admitted that he wanted us to appoint Curbishley.

Whilst no one knows for certain what actually went on, I would not be surprised if Gerrard and Carra influenced the decision for Rafa and Liverpool to part ways, with him being replaced by an English Manager.

Shame really because I think when their careers are over they will look back and (hopefully) realise just what a positive impact Rafa had on them as footballers.

[Phoenix07]

BTW Darkon's and Mr Mr's stance is obviously fine, but there is a lot of venom reserved for Benitez by plenty of our own and it is that which is so utterly inexplicable. He is loathed by some of our own (just go on TLW) and I know in person Reds who by their own admission can't stand him and would "give it all up if he came back". That includes ST holders and armchair fans.

It's that attitude which I found completely and utterly incredible.

And the polar opposite on places such as RAWK where any ounce of constructive criticism results in a ban.

Hearts rule over heads concerning Benitez.

When people say why FSG might not consider Benitez, it's immediately dismissed and laughed at. Anyone listed who might have a negative opinion of the man 'must leave' or is a 'dick'. Why?

People on the inside know far more than we do. Just because it doesn't match our opinion, doesn't mean they're scum.

[Shaggy]

Bottome line - losing Xabi was the single biggest player loss we've had in decades

You're probably right, but in my experience Benitez is routinely slaughtered by his haters (see previous post) for the Alonso stuff. I always ask....why aren't you giving him credit for a) signing him - the sort of player we could only have dreamed about - in the first place and b) getting about 5 full years out of him, which is fairly unusual for a top class foreign player.

We got a great shift out of him, bought him for £10m and sold him for £30m. Yet there are people out there not prepared to give Rafa an ounce of credit for any of it, only happy to slag him off for falling out with him and selling him for £30m.

[Reece]

Looks what you've started MrM

[Buzzo]

Personally I was gutted when Rafa left, it was his first bad season with us and was played out under massive mitigating circumstances. He was a legend for going to war with the owners, which eventually cost him his job - but equally he highlighted what was wrong within the club.

I would love to see Rafa back at the club in some role, and sense he feels he has unfinished business with us. I also find it baffling that there is a groundswell of opinion against him. But then that's life and it would be boring if we all felt the same way or wanted the same thing.

[Lee]

I think people complained about Lucas and Mascherano together (and to be fair, they made a pretty horrid pairing at times), but Alonso and Mascherano worked so ****ing well.

Such a well-oiled machine playing that 4231 formation with those two holding, Gerrard behind Torres, Kuyt on the right and Riera on the left. I really don't remember anyone complaining about Alonso and Mascherano playing deep.

[Lee]

If Gerrard & Carragher were so concerned about our under-performance that season, I can only imagine what they must be feeling now.

**** the performances. They're chuffed that the wives all get on now.

Handbag talk ftw.

[Alex]

And the polar opposite on places such as RAWK where any ounce of constructive criticism results in a ban.

Hearts rule over heads concerning Benitez.

Not at all. I can see his achievements in the cold light of day. Look at his record. It speaks for itself.

Heart ruling head does come into the performances we had. I can see an element of me wanting to believe we played lovely football, but in reality we played some great stuff, but equally we played out some boring 0-0's and the like.