Rafa Watch

[Kenneth]

But so does Kop Flop Klopp.

[MrMichael]

But so does Kop Flop Klopp.

Have you been moonlighting as a headline writer for the Daily Star?

[Rich]

No moonlighting, he is the headline writer.

[cream]

The Benitez era was definitely a golden era, it was long time coming and we might have just as long for another one.

[Dhav]

Part of that is utter conjecture, the rest is hugely dismissive of 2 great servants to the club, including one of our greatest ever players. Where would Rafa have been without Gerrard? Remember Istanbul, it wasn't Gerrard who got our tactics (and team selection) hideously wrong in the first half, but it was him who dragged us by the scruff of our necks back into that game.

I'm not by any means arguing in favour of player power, but FFS, its not like Rafa himself didn't admit afterwards that it wasn't really possible for him to continue as manager at the time. All the off field stuff wasn't Gerrard and Carra's fault. The disastrous Robbie Keane and Aquilani transfers weren't their fault. Complete revisionism to argue that somehow Rafa's sacking was all about those 2 and nothing to do with a poor season on the pitch or the complete breakdown of Rafa's relationship with the boardroom.

Oh, and no, the manager isn't the most important person at a football club. Technically the chairman is, seeing as its him who gets to appoint and sack managers. But more than that, nobody, NOBODY is more important than the club as a whole. Certainly Gerrard and Carragher aren't, but neither is Rafa Benitez either, much though you wouldn't think it reading some posts on here at times.

Great servants to the club in the past no doubt, but what are they contributing at the present? Carragher is draining tens of thousands of pounds out of the club every week, he plays the occasional game when Agger is injured and is invariably a liability in those games and costs us goals. He’s been pretty dreadful for the last three seasons (including this one). I have seen nothing to suggest that Coates shouldn’t be playing ahead of Carragher, and if we were ever in a position where Coates wasn’t available then Kelly is a centre back by trade and can fill in I’m sure.

As for Gerrard, he has been below par for a similar period (since he was acquitted of that DJ incident) so again that’s three seasons where he has been average. Since he has returned from injury you can count the number of good games he has had on two fingers. I can count more games in that period where he has strolled around the pitch as if he doesn’t have to put any graft in because he the Billy Big Bollocks of the team, everyone else can do the work for him and he can just smoke his pipe and admire his dressing gown and slippers while playing Hollywood balls that miss their mark and taking pot shots from outside the area which end up in the stands.

It’s not about what they’ve done for us in the past (for the record I said I was grateful for their contributions). That’s irrelevant. It’s about what they are doing for us in the present and what they can do in the future. The club should always be forward looking, and just because those two were dependable 5-6 years ago frankly counts for nothing when both are well into their thirties, play sparingly (one due to injury, the other because he has been superseded) and are in decline. Like I said, for everything they have done they were handsomely rewarded, reflected in their salary and bonuses, the kudos and glory, and the influence they have had within the club which I would suggest has gone too far. We owe them nothing. If they can’t do anything for us but hold us back, then there is nothing we can do for them. Time to sever the relationship and move forward.

With respect, I never said that Rafa’s sacking was purely down to Gerrard and Carragher solely, nor did I mean to imply such a thing if that’s the way you read it. Clearly there were many contributing factors. However I would also say it is foolhardy to ignore the role they played in his departure. Both had poor seasons individually which contributed to a poor season collectively. Neither backed their manager in public or otherwise when the question of Rafa’s future arose (in Carragher’s case this was doubtless because he would not have been offered a new deal under Rafa, or certainly not the deal he would have liked or expected). Purslow also courted favour with the players and wanted to keep them happy; at the time Torres fell out with Rafa over his injury which threatened his participation in the World Cup, I’m certain Carra and Gerrard had frosty relationships with Rafa too.

Clearly 2009-10 was a poor season, but there were several mitigating factors:– Rafa had made a profit in the previous three windows; his hands were tied in the transfer market and the team was being weakened. Yes, the Robbie Keane transfer was a bad one but the circumstances surrounding it are contested by Rafa himself who says the priority was to sign Barry and only then to bring in Keane; although Keane was a target Parry acted unilaterally in acquiring him irrespective of what happened with Barry. In any case we got rid of him at the first available opportunity and only lost something like £4m on the deal. The problem of course was that he was not adequately replaced because Rafa was not given the funds to do so. Again the Aquilani deal proved a bad one, but again Rafa’s transfer plans were scuppered – he wanted Jovetic to play with Aquilani and while the funds should have been available from the Alonso sale they were denied to him. In any case why was Rafa sacked after a one below par season when the seasons preceding it were hugely successful and he over-performed? Houllier and before him Evans and Souness were afforded at least a couple of seasons where the team performed below expectations. Let’s not forget at the time of his departure the club was in the mire financially, on the brink of administration with a debt repayment deadline looming. There was no money to enhance the squad and we were looking to make a profit in the transfer market to improve the financial situation. Yet someone seemingly thought it was a good idea to pay £5m to sack a successful CL winning manager who also presided over our best league season in 19 years, and pay a further £2.5m compensation to bring in an utter buffoon to replace him. As for Rafa’s breakdown with the board, was this really a reason to get rid of him? The board itself was fractious and split, how could anyone be expected to have a good relationship with the directors when there were competing factions within the boardroom? Hodgson himself said it was difficult to work under the American owners during the sale process going on. Pretty much any manager would have had difficulty building a good working relationship with his superiors in those circumstances. We were hardly the paradigm of a well-run, stable club, which is why we would have been a hard sell for any established manager potentially coming in; that’s why it was a bad idea to get rid of Rafa and why we ended up with a complete muppet in his place.

I will take issue with you on what you say about the chairman of a club. Clearly the most important aspect of the club is the playing side and it is on this aspect of the club where the manager yields the most control, is the figurehead, and is the most important person. This is what I am referring to. The players should not be making any decisions when it comes to this, and any input they have should be severely limited.

I do not know where you have seen anyone say Rafa is bigger than the club. We’re all Liverpool fans first and foremost before being Gerrard, Carragher or Rafa fans. We don’t change our allegiances when any of those move on and represent other clubs. And it is because we are fans of the club and want the best for it that many of us think that he should return as manager as he is the best man to take us forward.

[Dhav]

Btw, I should add that as highly as I do think of Rafa, I acknowledge he was far from infallible. For me his biggest cock-up while he was here was alienating Alonso to the extent that he did and looking to replace him with Barry, a player not fit to wipe Xabi's boots. The Aquilani transfer was an error too, but I think far bigger mistakes have been made subsequently by Kenny in not giving Aquilani a fair chance and loaning him out, and selling Meireless too beleiving Adam would be an adequate replacement for both. And that's before you even consider that we've forked out £35m on Carroll, £20m on Downing and so on.

[Kenneth]

I think that the methodical methods that made him successful were sometimes his downfall. He lacked the ability to let the players go for the jugular when needed. This was especially evident at home to poorer sides when his selections and approach were overly cautious.

[the rev leeroy brown]

Btw, I should add that as highly as I do think of Rafa, I acknowledge he was far from infallible. For me his biggest cock-up while he was here was alienating Alonso to the extent that he did and looking to replace him with Barry, a player not fit to wipe Xabi's boots. The Aquilani transfer was an error too, but I think far bigger mistakes have been made subsequently by Kenny in not giving Aquilani a fair chance and loaning him out, and selling Meireless too beleiving Adam would be an adequate replacement for both. And that's before you even consider that we've forked out £35m on Carroll, £20m on Downing and so on.

i differ in that i think that was a good move by kenny.

aqua was miserable, didnt want to be here and was begging to go home. regardless of how good a player he may have been for us the fact remains i doubt he would have fulfilled his potential here given how he failed to settle.

as for meireles, yes he was decent for us last year and yes he is a better player than adam but i dont want anyone playing for us who doesnt agree with the team ethos. to be a unit you cannot be all about "me, me, me" which meireles clearly showed was his thinking by handing in a transfer request last day after throwing a **** fit for not being given a pay increase he wasnt really entitled to or deserving of.

[RedReet]

Thats exactly it,Alonso beside Masher= quality,A holding midfielder,singular.Maybe you weren't but plenty of people moaned about playing Masher and Lucas alongside each other at home in games against the dross.

I know I didnt imagine all those gripes in the match threads at the time and Andy gray has **** all to do with it for me

But you highlighted in the same post that the fans had a problem with the 'D column'. The season Lucas played with Mascherano that column only stood at 3.

People were moaning about the two defensive midfielders when Xabi was one of them. Despite the fact Rafa changed to his two 'defensive midfielders' at the time he moved Gerrard up top (Jan 2008) and we finsihed the season of on fire scoring goals for fun. We continued that into the new season, rightly hit the top of the league, then picked up a couple of draws about Christmas. That's when Andry ****ing Gray decided to slate that negative Spaniard who didn't understand the PL for playing 2 DM's every game and from then every subsequent match thread was littered with this ridiclous comment.

We finished that season averaging 3/4 goals per game and cunts still moaned about why we needed to Mascherano.

I think Xabi appealed to a lot of LFC fans because he was clearly a great guy - real officer material, hard as ****, gave everything, was scared of noone, had plenty of skill and was an astonishing and fast passer of the ball. No ****in around with Xabi - crunching tackle on Fat Frank, win the ball, turn and get rid of it accurately either 5 yards or 50 yards away Lots struggled to see how we could possibly improve on the most complete midfielder we had in years, hence the dismay at Rafa wanting Gareth ****in Barry at his expense.

I don't hate Rafa at all though and I believe that he could do well with us now and I also believe that the time for him was right to go when he did. It had jst gone tits up. I'd love him to come back actually cos he's the best fit for us. But equally and confusingly, I'd love a complete fresh start but I don't know with who. Probably Klopp since Rafa himself rates him highly

Regarding Carra and SG - Carra is now a dead weight and possibly a malign influence in the club. The fact that he's a local lad, great servant etc means nothing. Sadly. I don't hate Carra but I love LFC and he's no help to us at all now. Give the job to Coates and let Carra have a laugh with Andy Carroll's girlfriend at the end of season bbq. As for SG... I'd still keep him but I supect that only someone like Rafa can keep his head in line. And play him where he's best.

Lots also wanted rid of him and thought he was finished after a season plagued by injury and adjusting to a deeper role.

[badpiggy]

But you highlighted in the same post that the fans had a problem with the 'D column'. The season Lucas played with Mascherano that column only stood at 3.

People were moaning about the two defensive midfielders when Xabi was one of them. Despite the fact Rafa changed to his two 'defensive midfielders' at the time he moved Gerrard up top (Jan 2008) and we finsihed the season of on fire scoring goals for fun. We continued that into the new season, rightly hit the top of the league, then picked up a couple of draws about Christmas. That's when Andry ****ing Gray decided to slate that negative Spaniard who didn't understand the PL for playing 2 DM's every game and from then every subsequent match thread was littered with this ridiclous comment.

We finished that season averaging 3/4 goals per game and cunts still moaned about why we needed to Mascherano.



Lots also wanted rid of him and thought he was finished after a season plagued by injury and adjusting to a deeper role.

Yeah but those lots were all wrong

[destinydude]

Very few wanted him out. Lots wanted him to stay.

[RedReet]

Very few wanted him out. Lots wanted him to stay.

There was loads of people thought he wasn't the same after his injury becuase he wasn't hitting 70 yard passes every time he got the ball like his first season. There were even more saying Rafa was right to offer him out when he originally did because he had a poor season.

[dww]

Very few wanted him out. Lots wanted him to stay.

I'm not sure how true that is. I think opinions were quite mixed. IIRC, A lot of people (myself included) felt that circumstances dictated he had to leave, there were also two pretty large camps in favour of deification or crucifixion.

[G]

But you highlighted in the same post that the fans had a problem with the 'D column'. The season Lucas played with Mascherano that column only stood at 3.

People were moaning about the two defensive midfielders when Xabi was one of them. Despite the fact Rafa changed to his two 'defensive midfielders' at the time he moved Gerrard up top (Jan 2008) and we finsihed the season of on fire scoring goals for fun. We continued that into the new season, rightly hit the top of the league, then picked up a couple of draws about Christmas. That's when Andry ****ing Gray decided to slate that negative Spaniard who didn't understand the PL for playing 2 DM's every game and from then every subsequent match thread was littered with this ridiclous comment.

We finished that season averaging 3/4 goals per game and cunts still moaned about why we needed to Mascherano.

Lucas played many games before Alonso was sold,all at at time when people really doubted the boys ability and not just 08-09 but 07-08 when Xabi wasn't so great.09-10 just compounded the misery we all felt cos it was a **** season and we had to look at Masher and Lucas in tandem in most games.

I never considered Xabi to be a DM,it was perfectly understandable to play him with Masher but my original point was that many are lauding the home form we had under Rafa and compared to now I can see why,but at the time plenty complained about those home draws and Rafa's conservatism in some of those games at home against the dross

I was happy Rafa went when he did and I don't want him back.I'm happy for Kenny to get another year but if he went I wouldn't be unhappy.By the same token if Rafa came back I wouldn't be unhappy either.

It would be nice to give him his shot free from the restraints he endured in his final years so we could all move on at the end of it.

[baitman]

I think that the methodical methods that made him successful were sometimes his downfall. He lacked the ability to let the players go for the jugular when needed. This was especially evident at home to poorer sides when his selections and approach were overly cautious.

i kind of got the feeling that he wanted players to play to his rigid strategy, and the very idea of a player roaming out of position and confusing opposition defences [like arsenal and manure love to] would have meant detention and lines. we very rarely put teams to the sword.