Kenny isn't what we need

[RichC]

indeed, the conversion rate has been terrible. On the most part we've played pretty well and as the stats show we've created a lot of chances.

I think we could do with another top striker coming in, it's still one area we're weak on IMO as a squad, if you look at either Manchester club, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal they have a lot of options up top compared to us. That if there are any signings coming in this Jan would be where I'd want to see some extra help coming in.

[Alex]

It matters if you saw the game or not, because you'd have seen the difference between the way our team is up for it against Man Utd, and how they were that day.

Ok then, to satisfy you. Yes, I did watch that game, albeit delayed on LFC.TV I thought we weren't good enough against a decent Spurs team. No subconscious about it. We were ****. Happy.

Yet again you're not reading my post properly. Of course every team wants to win. Answer me this, do you think we put in the same kind of heart, passion and effort into our Europa League games last season, as we do at home to Man Utd? Do we put in the same kind of heart and desire into a home game against Wigan as we do against Everton?

No, I dont think we showed the same amount of heart in the Europa league as we do against Man Utd, thats part of the problem. We should be. Ive seen the team play absolutely shockingly bad, but thats not down to lack of effort. We simply were not good enough.

The part of my post you didn't seem to acknowledge, was the point i made about it being somewhat subconscious. Nobody sits there thinking 'we dont want to win' or 'we dont care' but deep down, whether they realise it or not, sometimes players dont always have maximum desire and sometimes dont put their heart and soul into a game. Spurs at home last season was one such occasion.

Ok, so you are saying, and please tell me Im not reading your post again if Im wrong. But your saying we didn't care about getting in the Europa league, so subconsciously we wanted to lose. That is it? We didnt care about getting into a European competition. But the players didn't know that.

I'm reading your post fully, I cant understand what your saying though. How can anyone understand the subconscious of a football player and use that as a basis for an argument.

[Lecter]

So the answer is a striker who can score...

Torres

[Craig_H]

I'm saying there was a mindset that we'd be better off without the Europa League and as a 'prize', it's not really considered valuable, so the passion and desire wasnt there, unlike how it's there when we play Man Utd.

[Craig_H]

Yep, he's a striker after all yet it seems to be accepted by everyone that he's an option on the wing and not really anywhere else. If we're playing two up top I'd want to see him & Suarez given a chance together. They'd be nightmarish to play against.

Even if we dont play a two up front...

4231:

Suarez
Bellamy Gerrard Kuyt

[Alex]

You name me one team that thinks they would be better off without European competition. There isnt any. Regardless of who you are, you want to play at the highest level you can get too. Why did we want to be there the season before, with pretty much the same players...barring Carroll and Suarez?

[Shaggy]

Even if we dont play a two up front...

4231:

Suarez
Bellamy Gerrard Kuyt

On paper Bellamy's presence in that front four suddenly makes us look much more dangerous IMO, and on the evidence on the pitch so far suggests the same. He's getting too few minutes, really want to see a lot more of him.

[~LFCHistory~]

We played 4-4-2 a lot last season

You say the player know how to play 4-2-3-1 - well which ones??

Take Saturdays starting side for instance

Only Reina (not an outfield player) Lucas, Agger, Skrtel & Johnson are remnants of Rafa's 4-2-3-1 system (or even Roy's side)

That leaves Suarez, Downing, Adam, Enrique, Carroll & Henderson all of whom NEVER played under Rafa. Did all the clubs they played for play 4-2-3-1?? I dont think so

I understand what you are getting at, in your opinion the players we have are more suited to 4-2-3-1 but that is VERY different to suggesting that they dont know how to play 4-2-3-1

I'm not even sure I agree with the 4-2-3-1 comment now, we've had a high turnover of players since Rafa (and Roy) left and we are probably as far away from being able to put out a 4-2-3-1 side as we are of playing 4-4-2 comfortably

For me the issue isn't so much abou formations as it is about the playing style. Last season under Dalglish we played a fluid, modern system, very rarely did you see the front 4 players standing in a pre-designated area. Instead the players were given freedom to move around the pitch to receive the ball, help their team mates and draw opposition players away to create space.
Last night I watched the Swansea game on LFCTV and it was clear that we were using an old, rigid and outdated 442 formation. The movement, fluidity, vision, passing and freedom of last season was gone. When you play an inflexible system it is so easy for the opposition to negate beacuse they know exactly were our players will be at all times.
Personally I can't fathom why Dalglish has ditched the formula that served us so well last season for a system that belongs in the past. One possible explanation is he trying to recreate the system that brought him success at Blackburn.

Of course there are other issues to discuss such as the quality of some of our signings and sidelining of some our better players but that is for another time.

[The_weatherman]

I'm definately not going to call for Kenny's head. But I do feel that Rafa for instance would have gotten more out this group, mostly due to, as Arn said somewhere (as a part of a very incoherent argument) the lack of organization. If I was asked how the Liverpool team plays and what it does best I couldn't answer, there is short passing in spurts, hoofing in spurts, we don't hunt in packs and there is no urgency in the team. Our most potent weapon is being random enough in our attacks and put our faith in Suarez.

Maybe that's due to the team gelling but I don't think so, the team just doesn't "look right". We have been very unfortunate with both Carroll and Downing hitting the woodwork, if they had scored three or four goals more their confidence would be better, the team better off and this post not started.

So, to sum up, I'm satisfied with the team, but not happy. I feel there is no identity, no cohesion, strange substitions but most importantly no luck.

[Craig_H]

You name me one team that thinks they would be better off without European competition. There isnt any. Regardless of who you are, you want to play at the highest level you can get too. Why did we want to be there the season before, with pretty much the same players...barring Carroll and Suarez?

Right, there was a healthy enough percentage of fans whose mindset was 'lets leave the Europa league, we will be better off without the strain of midweek games and we will be fresher for the league games, playing once a week'.

Plus there's a lot of fans who felt that the Europa League itself, and the games in it, were drab affairs, which we couldnt really get 'up for' unless we reached the last 8 or something.

The massively overwhelming objective was a top four finish and it was thought by many, that a Europa League campaign might have had a detrimental effect on our league campaign. Not to mention the hope that being out of it could work as an advantage for us in the league, compared to our rivals for top four.

Are you suggesting that absolutely NONE of the players might have shared the above sentiments and, furthermore that, as professional as they're meant to be, the fact that they are also human couldnt have possibly affected their outlook, even on a subconscious level?

And people say I'M too 'black and white' about things

[peekay]

Its not even remotely close.

Net, we've spent about £40m tops since Kenny took over. Now that's a really good amount, however when you consider how many players we got rid of in the summer and how much we cut the wage bill, it would actually be fair to consider an accurate spend to be a decent amount less than that.

In several of his earlier seasons Rafa spent around or over £20m net, and in doing so increased the wage bill etc. I really don't think a fair assessment, taking everything into account, would have Kenny's net spending as much more than Rafa was able to spend at all. Yeah sure, there's a couple of big individual deals that look rather dodgy at the moment (Carroll, Downing). However things may still turn around with those, and anyway I find it a little odd that Kenny is taking all the flak for them, considering Commoli's role in transfers.

I am finding it a bit odd that people are comparing Kenny's net spend with Rafa's net spend.

One thing we can all can agree on is that from 2009 till January 2011, we have underspent in relation to other clubs we are competing against. Again not a criticism of Rafa, due to the extreme circumstances he was put in he took gambles which did not work out. But the bottom line is that whatever money was spent was spent unwisely.

Bodge and Purslow came and worsened the situation. During the same time all of our competitors who were in a much stronger state to begin with in terms of squad depth were investing heavily and astutely.

Kenny did invest a lot and as I have said in previous posts it could have been invested more wisely. However irrespective of who did it and who didnt do it, the truth is that we were dealing with a highly underfunded and unstable squad in relation to our peers. Money and time are the two important resources a manager needs. Let us give Kenny the time to see what his vision is.

Second aspect is that we were broken a a club into divisions by January. What we needed was not a hot shot young manager, we needed a healer. There was only one choice there. And when he did well, we had only one option, to extend his contract.

Imagine three years down the line let us say there is a young hot shot manager who is ripping up the La Liga and wanted by us, Madrid and Barca. What is going to be our USP? We will fund you but not to the extent of others and if you dont perform within 11 games we will fire you? Or will it be we will give you resources, not to the extent of City but still a decent amount and we will give you THE TIME to establish your footballing identity?

[Exiled_red]

Right, there was a healthy enough percentage of fans whose mindset was 'lets leave the Europa league, we will be better off without the strain of midweek games and we will be fresher for the league games, playing once a week'.

Plus there's a lot of fans who felt that the Europa League itself, and the games in it, were drab affairs, which we couldnt really get 'up for' unless we reached the last 8 or something.

The massively overwhelming objective was a top four finish and it was thought by many, that a Europa League campaign might have had a detrimental effect on our league campaign. Not to mention the hope that being out of it could work as an advantage for us in the league, compared to our rivals for top four.

Are you suggesting that absolutely NONE of the players might have shared the above sentiments and, furthermore that, as professional as they're meant to be, the fact that they are also human couldnt have possibly affected their outlook, even on a subconscious level?

And people say I'M too 'black and white' about things

This is moving away from your point but do you think it has been beneficial or not being out of Europe?

Personally I think being in the Europa League this year would have helped us. We did a big rebuilding job over the summer and Europa League would have given the players more experience playing together and getting to know the system and each other. I think this would have delivered better league performances sooner. I can see the arguement about fitness but I think that is more of an issue in the second half of the season.

Just my 2p

[Craig_H]

This is moving away from your point but do you think it has been beneficial or not being out of Europe?

Personally I think being in the Europa League this year would have helped us. We did a big rebuilding job over the summer and Europa League would have given the players more experience playing together and getting to know the system and each other. I think this would have delivered better league performances sooner. I can see the arguement about fitness but I think that is more of an issue in the second half of the season.

Just my 2p

I can see where you're coming from and there's a case for saying that, but it opens up the question of whether we'd have been playing a first choice XI in the Europa League, which i'm not convinced about.

IMHO, being out of it SHOULD be beneficial to us, but our start hasnt been great, neither has it been awful.

There's no way of knowing whether being in the Europa League would've seen us currently on a higher points tally than we are but i dont think i'd conclude that NOT being in it has been partly responsible for our dropped points thus far.

[Neil Young]

This is moving away from your point but do you think it has been beneficial or not being out of Europe?

I want to know what people here are subconsciously thinking the players are subconsciously thinking about the issue.

Obviously that's not what I think I want to know but I know subconsciously that's what I subconsciously want.

[RichC]

It's quite interesting to see that over the same period of time the last 3 managers point tally in their first full season in charge has been the following

Rafa 2004-2005 - 17 points after 11 games
Bodgson 2010-2011 15 points after 11 games
Kenny 2011-2012 19 points after 11 games.

Now obviously the Bodge was a dreadful manager and Rafa is a top class manager but there's not a huge difference in points taken there tbh, what I think this shows is that managers need time (not the Bodge obviously) Rafa changed things around and got us to within a gnats pube of winning the title, Kenny has to be given time to build a side put his stamp on it and then be given a couple of seasons to do what we all hope he can do.