Our style of play

[SB]

Absolutely, get your system and coach the **** out of it.

What do you do though when other managers start to counter the **** out of your system? Are you able to tweak it to counter the counter? Or do you need to tweak it so much that it becomes a whole new system? And if that's the case do you have it in you to completely change things, given that your old system is such a part of your mindset?

I sometimes wonder if we've reached that stage. When we were in our pomp the system was fairly novel. Now everyone understands it. Apologies for using the word system so much.

You’ll have to wait for Pep’s 2nd book to be released to find out. Intensely Intensive

[Venton]

You’ll have to wait for Pep’s 2nd book to be released to find out. Intensely Intensive

I'm sort of hoping they've broken his writing hand

[SB]

I'm sort of hoping they've broken his writing hand

Google AI to the rescue

[badpiggy]

Some interesting and fairly significant opinions there lads. Are ye basically saying Klopp's time with us is finished? In my gut I believe this is the case but I don't have the tactical football knowledge to give a clear explanation of why. It just seems like something is gone. I don't know about psychological theories blaming Lijnders etc but they also seem plausible to me. Saying this off the back of an away draw to Chelsea and a decent home win seems silly maybe but nothing can shake the feeling that we're continuing on the downward side of Klopp's reign. In fact I often wonder about our next manager. Xabi for me but that's a bit of sentimental self indulgence.

I don't view this as any way "disloyal" to our manager btw. Just musing on a chat site. I'd also love to be laughably wrong.

[labourRed]

I don't know but its clear this hybrid system is here to stay. Comments from Matip (who looks to be a fall guys of the system).

“It is obviously a different kind of situation for me now and I need to adapt,” said the Cameroonian. “I think it will get better and better in the season.”

“For sure, I have to think of different things on the pitch because the right-back will not be there in the first moment.”

“We need to adapt, but at the same time we have got some more players and some new players in the midfield.”

“There are always some pros and cons, but there is no perfect system. It’s how we live the system that we are playing, and I feel confident of our system.”

Liverpool have not lost a competitive game since April, when Klopp was forced to change to this ‘hybrid’ formation in an attempt to secure UEFA Champions League qualification.

“Different kinds of players will now play in front of us and everybody needs to adapt and maybe change, but we will try to help each other”, said Matip.

“As centre-backs we always have a close connection to our six – the guy who plays in front of you – and it will be no different now. We need to help the six and the six needs to help us.”

The 32-year-old also went on to praise the impact that the new signings have made, particularly that of Dominik Szoboszlai:

“We lost a lot of quality, but we also received some amazing players. Everybody needs to step in now to fill the gaps now that some players have left and I am looking forward to this. I feel confident we can do this.”

“We always had some great set-piece takers, but with Dominik we have got so much additional quality. Maybe he can slot into the team and then we’ve got even more options from set-pieces.”

[Doc_Piptorious]

Some interesting and fairly significant opinions there lads. Are ye basically saying Klopp's time with us is finished? In my gut I believe this is the case but I don't have the tactical football knowledge to give a clear explanation of why. It just seems like something is gone. I don't know about psychological theories blaming Lijnders etc but they also seem plausible to me. Saying this off the back of an away draw to Chelsea and a decent home win seems silly maybe but nothing can shake the feeling that we're continuing on the downward side of Klopp's reign. In fact I often wonder about our next manager. Xabi for me but that's a bit of sentimental self indulgence.

I don't view this as any way "disloyal" to our manager btw. Just musing on a chat site. I'd also love to be laughably wrong.

Speaking for myself only, the answer to that is a resounding no.

What we are looking at imo is Klopp trying to reinvent his team tactically and is in that stage where a person trying to do something new is still saying "a little more time/effort/practise and things will click".

Such stubborness/hubris/confidence/determination is pretty common amongst folk that are elite within their chosen field and Klopp is most certainly still elite.`

As for the hypothetical of who one's preference for the next manager should be.


Xabi I would go with if he has another two seasons of showing growth. He is off to a very good start though and looks a far more accomplished manager in a shorter time than say Gerrard did.

My actual preference in the here and now would be Thomas Frank. Seems to be tactically very savvy, seems to have a similar (ish) personality as Klopp and appears to have values/character. Also seems to be able to tweak a "lesser" team so that it continuously holds it's own (or maybe even pounches about it's weight) regarldess of losing players to sales, injuries or suspensions.


Still have a slight hunch that Graham Potter has what it takes to be a manager at a top tier club and that his time at Chelsea was more an outlier than a true reflection of his ability as a coach/manager.


The man who replaced him at Brighton, Roberto De Zerbi, might well be a valid shout also in a couple seasons. Has a track record already of going into clubs, improving their playing style (as in making it more effective), a good record of man management, a good record of being tactically savvy/inventive. Comes across, to me, at times as a more attack minded (and less prickish) version of Simeone or a more attack minded and a more tactically version of Pochettino.


Masybe most importantly, both Frank and De Zerbi both come across as having that intangible quality that marks them as being the sort of men that are natural winners, the sorts that find ways to improve, that find ways to make the right changes and that do not understand the meaning of the word quit. They strike me as men under whom you can fail as long as you never quit along the way and you learn from that failure.

[dizzycat]

I would add Steffen Baumgart to that list, if that Cologne team had a decent striker they could do some serious damage. Doesn't need the money to do it either. Added bonus of having Dom DeLuise on the touchline.

[badpiggy]

Is the problem with all these guys - my own favourite Xabi included - is that they are all potentially Rodgers Mark II? Klopp was a winner when he came. All these guys? Potential surely. Exciting for sure but they're not top tier at all. One difference being that Xabi was a big time winner as a player and has played with players at the absolute top of their game. Potter, Frank etc - like Rodgers - don't have that in their experience. I guess it would be like when BD hired Klopp.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Is the problem with all these guys - my own favourite Xabi included - is that they are all potentially Rodgers Mark II? Klopp was a winner when he came. All these guys? Potential surely. Exciting for sure but they're not top tier at all. One difference being that Xabi was a big time winner as a player and has played with players at the absolute top of their game. Potter, Frank etc - like Rodgers - don't have that in their experience. I guess it would be like when BD hired Klopp.

True though think if we are talking a couple more years down the line a few of them may have won something by then or at the very least continued to oversee improvements at clubs that do not have the financial clout to truly compete for top honours.


Then things like styles of play, effectiveness of tactics, ability to adapt to adversity, handling of the media, track record of continued improvement, ability to work with a DOf and so on would all come into play.

Also with regards to Klopp, his first major honour came after he was a full decade working as a senior coach/manager, he was seven years at a "lesser" club proving himself before getting the Dortmund gig and then another three years before he won anything.

He also oversaw his first team get promoted, get relegated and then promoted again so by the time Dortmund got him he could also have that Rodger mkII tag (or the equivalent at the time) hanging over him and we got him after Dortmund had a serious slump during his final season (a slump that was righted in the latter stages of that season)


Thomas Franck is five years a senior coach (all at Brentford)

Roberto De Zerbi is seven years a senior coach (desoite being only 44) and he has shown that every time he jumped up a level in terms of the quality of team, that he could quickly get the team playing to his methods, that he has a very clear vision of his he wants teams to play and that he seems to be able to easily adapt to working in different countries.

Alonso is very much the baby of the bunch being the youngest and only one season into his managerial career and as such has the most question marks hanging over him.

So think Frank and Cerbi are at the point now in their careers (or getting within a season or two of it) where they are the Klopp at Mainz and us going for them would be a similar jump up ( Brentford/Brighton up to Liverpool) as Dortmund was for Mainz.


Both being managers that have started to prove themselves as PL level managers (especially Frank on that score) does not hurt either.


If by 2026 they are still doing well at their clubs and Klopp does not add a 12 month extention to his current contract, then I would not be unhappy with either man coming in tbh.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Was thinking earlier about our squad depth and how many think we are badly short in midfield or in defence or wherever.

The more I look at our current squad the more and more I think our biggest challenge and biggest obstacle is not squad depth at all (which is not to say we could not do with a few more players but I digress)


Sat down and tried to put together our best XI players (with the caveat of assuming every one is fit and also that others that read this will replace one player with another and so on)

Have dropped everyone into two team and for the sake of formatting I made the formation a 433. Closer to a flat three in the centre in the first team sheet and playing with a DM in the second one.



Best XI

------------------------------Alisson---------------------------------
TAA-------------Konate----------------VVD------------Robertson
-----------------------------Thiago---------------------------------
---------Szoboszlai---------------------MacAllister----------------
Salah-----------------------Gakpo--------------------------Diaz



Back up team sheet


-----------------------------Kelleher---------------------------------
Bradley-------------Matip-----------------Gomez-------------Tsimikas
-----------------------------Endo---------------------------------
---------Bajcetic or Elliot-----------------------Jones----------------
Doak-----------------------Nunez---------------------------------Jota





The starting line up in what I think is our best XI players is a bloody strong team imo.

It has a good mix of pace, creativity, work rate and a sprinkling of top class players mixed in.



The back up team still looks good enough (with the addition of a better back up RB) to handle lesser PL teams and the same in the Europa League or in the domestic cups.


Numerically we need a few more bodies in to pad out the squad a little more to cater for injuries and to create a bit more competition, but the players we have right now, when you stop and look at both teams, are, or rather should be, better than what most clubs in the league could put out as their starting and back up teams.


Which brings me back to what our biggest challenge or obstacle is. If our team looks very good, if our back up options look decent to good, then the issue has to be in the coaching and/or the style of play we use.


All very obvious stuff Doc and this is the sort of thing that handsome ******* Jaco used to say on this site I hear some say. But it does beg the question if the players we already have are that good, if our current back ups are pretty good (with the caveat we need a little bit more depth/quality) and if a simple dentist turned card player turned gun slinger thinks he can see that it is the system we are using that is holding back proven players, then why is it not as obvious to our manager and his coaching staff.

Is it as simple as Jurgen being an elite manager and having the sort of stubborness/ego/desire that such folk have, is determined to keep doing the same thing over and over again (Check a certain definition of what that means Jurgey ) until something clicks?


Is it possible Klopp does not see the issues? This option I outright refuse to believe as he is just too damn good a manager.

Is there more player power behind the scnes nowadays that we are aware of and some players have Klopp's ear more than they should. Unlikely but more plausible imo than Klopp not seeing the issues.


Or is it the nuclear option of there being something toxic at play amongst some of the playing staff and the half arsed performances are some push back against the manager? Doubt it but who knows.


Only thing I am sure of is that we have a squad that looks very good and that does not seem to translate into what we see on the pitch.

[baitman]

Best XI

------------------------------Alisson---------------------------------
TAA-------------Konate----------------VVD------------Robertson
-----------------------------Thiago---------------------------------
---------Szoboszlai---------------------MacAllister----------------
Salah-----------------------Gakpo--------------------------Diaz



Back up team sheet


-----------------------------Kelleher---------------------------------
Bradley---------Matip---------Gomez-------Tsimikas
-----------------------------Endo---------------------------------
---------Bajcetic or Elliot-----------------------Jones----------------
Doak-----------------------Nunez---------------------------------Jota

The ones in bold are all regular injury doubts so remove them and see where we need replacement's.

[Doc_Piptorious]

The ones in bold are all regular injury doubts so remove them and see where we need replacement's.

To be fair I did say

Numerically we need a few more bodies in to pad out the squad a little more to cater for injuries and to create a bit more competition

Plus from the 22 players I put up, I think only Jones is out injured right now so we have a close to full strength squad to chose from atm.


But the point still stands that the players we have should be looking like a far more cohesive unit and should not be having life and death struggles with weaker teams.

We do have a very good squad (again with that caveat of needing a few extra bodies in to add competition and cover against injuries). but we do not look like we have a very good squad and are constantly looking disjointed.

For me that boils down to one of two thing, either the set up/formation we are using is completely wrong and it negates what many of our players are good at doing (which is my take) or there are players/individuals behind the scenes agitating for positional changes and are being placated with such (highly unlikely under a manager like Klopp imo)


However one cuts it and whatever theory ones comes up with, we should not be, with the squad of players we have at present, be looking at teams like Newcastle, Villa, Brentford, Brighton etc and wondering if any of them are going to give us a spanking like they were a prime top tier club.

There is something very wrong when we look at good, but not amazing, teams and we feel like we could be the underdogs in those match ups.

Just feels to me that whilst we are playing with a 3223 set up that the games against the likes of Man City are ones where we raise our games to give them a fight and then when we go against anyone outside the top four we are in 50/50 tussles.

Makes little sense with the players we have to then be using a set up that helps equalize the quality difference for the teams that face us.

[peterbread]

Going on from the talk in the Gomez thread about playing 3 at the back or Gomez as a LB, thought I’d bring it here instead, I wouldn’t mind becoming more of a counter attacking team while we get ourselves sorted defensively again.

Forget about possession for a while and sit in nice and tight and organised and use our pace and attacking threat on the counter. Might not work at home but considering our struggles away last year and the usual method of getting behind us this would help that. We are still so devastating on the counter and with plenty of options to add fresh legs late in the game, Darwin yesterday.

You’ve got the long passes from deep in Trent and Virgil. Diaz and Darwin have so much pace. We’ve seen how powerful Cody is running with the ball and starting counter attacks. Mo my not have the pace a dribbling that he used but will still damage teams and his passing would be even more dangerous. We know Jota can take players on as well and cause problems like he did yesterday. Szoboszlai would be like Cody and has that drive to run through teams.

Alexis, Jones and Harvey are all more than capable with their passing and can be disciplined enough not to just charge forward every chance. Might also help Endo, who is probably more used to that style, settle in to the team and league. Not that he’s the reason to change just a bonus from it.

[baitman]

Our midfield is ****, we need to bin them all.

We cannot get rid of them all. We need to keep the captain as he will provide stability.

He is past it and klopp needs to tell him.

Henderson told he won't get regular playing time. Moves to the beach.

Midfield rebuild.

We are 'nearly' there...

[baitman]

We all loved watching Alexis Mac Allister at Brighton. His midfield link play was brilliant, really pulling all the strings. He added some goals and assists, but was more about building the attacks and quickly recycling the 2nd ball back to the forward line.
Playing him as the DM is ruining his contribution. He isn't quick enough to cover the space and not beefy enough to deliver the odd crunching tackle when needed.
Endo does a reasonable job, we should play him whenever possible, so releasing Mac to play his natural game further forward.
I cannot wait for the return of Stefan Bajcetic in the DM role, this lad looks a true world class talent.