Our style of play

[The_weatherman]

I think to say that we need a solid backline is far too simplistic. The midfield and defence need to dovetail much better. That's not necessarily just by having a better defensive midfielder like Lucas. The whole midfield needs to function as unit and seamlessly link to the defence and attack. This is basic stuff, right?

I think a lot of the goals we have conceded have been the result of the defence being completely exposed when the ball is given away, even as far up the pitch as the opposition area (see the Arsenal game).

Again to compare and contrast with Rafa, he would typically play with two holding midfielders. Masch, Didi, Sissoko were able to play in those positions. At the moment, it seems to be down to Allen to that job on his own without much in the way of support. Swap Lucas for Allen, and the level of exposure we have now will still be there.

My main gripe is the space between defence and midfield, I'm worried the midfield three can be stretched too much. Rafa was always preaching about staying compact, and we are the exact opposite of that IMO.

[el matador]

I think to say that we need a solid backline is far too simplistic. The midfield and defence need to dovetail much better. That's not necessarily just by having a better defensive midfielder like Lucas. The whole midfield needs to function as unit and seamlessly link to the defence and attack. This is basic stuff, right?

I think a lot of the goals we have conceded have been the result of the defence being completely exposed when the ball is given away, even as far up the pitch as the opposition area (see the Arsenal game).

Again to compare and contrast with Rafa, he would typically play with two holding midfielders. Masch, Didi, Sissoko were able to play in those positions. At the moment, it seems to be down to Allen to that job on his own without much in the way of support. Swap Lucas for Allen, and the level of exposure we have now will still be there.

for me there are three big issues with this system.

firstly - the fullbacks are pushed very high up the pitch and if we lose the ball we are open to fast counters. we also leave a lot of space in behind when this happens

secondly - we only play with one traditional sitter in allen who has to cover both fullback positions as well as looking after his own central area of the pitch. The other two midfielders are high up the pitch supporting play. one quick ball over the top could see our centre backs and allen exposed.

thirdly, its very very easy to drag allen out of his sitting position. he instinctively follows the ball around. when he's out of his place, we're all over the place. this would perhaps be different with lucas as the holder.

Ive got rafa's champions league book and it says time and time again how he looked to exploit space left by the advancing fullbacks and furthermore looked to build attacks behind lazy or indisciplined players.

[danperkins]

I think to say that we need a solid backline is far too simplistic. The midfield and defence need to dovetail much better. That's not necessarily just by having a better defensive midfielder like Lucas. The whole midfield needs to function as unit and seamlessly link to the defence and attack. This is basic stuff, right?

I think a lot of the goals we have conceded have been the result of the defence being completely exposed when the ball is given away, even as far up the pitch as the opposition area (see the Arsenal game).

Again to compare and contrast with Rafa, he would typically play with two holding midfielders. Masch, Didi, Sissoko were able to play in those positions. At the moment, it seems to be down to Allen to that job on his own without much in the way of support. Swap Lucas for Allen, and the level of exposure we have now will still be there.

It's not a simplistic view whatsoever and it wasn't the be all and end all of my point.

A solid backline is a backline that doesn't goals away goals cheaply. The Lucas absence is obvious and we can all see that but the amount of individual errors at the back has nothing got to do with Lucas not being there beside Allen.

Between Reina,Carra,Enrique,Skrtel & Coates (just last night) we have gifted teams about 10 + goals. These particular mistakes are not a symptom of not having a DM or 2 DM's in there but simply horrific individual mistakes, which we are getting punished for. It's almost uncanny at this stage.

When Lucas comes in beside Allen we will look much more solid with regards to the defensive sides of things in midfield but that still doesn't address the problem that our "defenders" are making so many mistakes. My original point being building a solid backline, that doesn't give away cheap goals and not conceding goals is a basis for winning.

Shoring up the backline must be priority number 1 at the moment IMO, and then the rest will follow. This system Rogers wants us to play will only work when we have the players in the team that can do, at the moment through injury and our lack of transfer dealings.. we are a few players short IMO.

[Muddled]

Good points, all.

I think it's clear we are leaving massive voids of space behind our full-backs, that neither centre-back is covering. Once the play is behind our defensive line, we are then chasing play and susceptible to the ball being pulled back. Having our midfield dovetail with our defence will obviously help, but I think it's our lack of zonal-pressing and knowing when to go and when not to go is causing the team a mischief.

Alongside the defensive chat, there were instances during last night's game of our zonal marking from set-pieces looking a bit wayward, which is reminiscent of when Rafa first started. It's gonna be a rollercoaster of a season, I feel.

[dom9]

for me there are three big issues with this system.

firstly - the fullbacks are pushed very high up the pitch and if we lose the ball we are open to fast counters. we also leave a lot of space in behind when this happens

secondly - we only play with one traditional sitter in allen who has to cover both fullback positions as well as looking after his own central area of the pitch. The other two midfielders are high up the pitch supporting play. one quick ball over the top could see our centre backs and allen exposed.

thirdly, its very very easy to drag allen out of his sitting position. he instinctively follows the ball around. when he's out of his place, we're all over the place. this would perhaps be different with lucas as the holder.

Ive got rafa's champions league book and it says time and time again how he looked to exploit space left by the advancing fullbacks and furthermore looked to build attacks behind lazy or indisciplined players.

Yup - that makes.

The more I think about it, the less I think that it is the individual mistakes or bad luck that is scuppering us, but the system itself.

The mistakes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

It boils down to basic risk management. Identify the risks, then find out what you can do to minimise them, then implement a balanced strategy to deal with them.

[danperkins]

Good points, all.

I think it's clear we are leaving massive voids of space behind our full-backs, that neither centre-back is covering. Once the play is behind our defensive line, we are then chasing play and susceptible to the ball being pulled back. Having our midfield dovetail with our defence will obviously help, but I think it's our lack of zonal-pressing and knowing when to go and when not to go is causing the team a mischief.

Alongside the defensive chat, there were instances during last night's game of our zonal marking from set-pieces looking a bit wayward, which is reminiscent of when Rafa first started. It's gonna be a rollercoaster of a season, I feel.

we looked very susceptible from set pieces & damn right in thinking Tony Pulis with his one track mind was taking some notes on this.

[dom9]

It's not a simplistic view whatsoever and it wasn't the be all and end all of my point.

A solid backline is a backline that doesn't goals away goals cheaply. The Lucas absence is obvious and we can all see that but the amount of individual errors at the back has nothing got to do with Lucas not being there beside Allen.

Between Reina,Carra,Enrique,Skrtel & Coates (just last night) we have gifted teams about 10 + goals. These particular mistakes are not a symptom of not having a DM or 2 DM's in there but simply horrific individual mistakes, which we are getting punished for. It's almost uncanny at this stage.

When Lucas comes in beside Allen we will look much more solid with regards to the defensive sides of things in midfield but that still doesn't address the problem that our "defenders" are making so many mistakes. My original point being building a solid backline, that doesn't give away cheap goals and not conceding goals is a basis for winning.

Shoring up the backline must be priority number 1 at the moment IMO, and then the rest will follow. This system Rogers wants us to play will only work when we have the players in the team that can do, at the moment through injury and our lack of transfer dealings.. we are a few players short IMO.

Neil Young made a god point about different levels of mistakes in the post match thread.

You are right that some catastrophic errors by Reina, Skrtel et al have led directly to goals and you can't really legislate for that. It is annoying that they have happened so often, but I'm not really talking about them here.

It is the mis-placed passes further up the pitch which are more worrying to me. Of course passes will be mis-placed in the opposing half, but these "mistakes" are often leading to goals too because the team is not set up to deal with them. That is my worry. And you can't blame the defence for that in isolation.

So I guess we are talking at crossed purposes.

[danperkins]

Neil Young made a god point about different levels of mistakes in the post match thread.

You are right that some catastrophic errors by Reina, Skrtel et al have led directly to goals and you can't really legislate for that. It is annoying that they have happened so often, but I'm not really talking about them here.

It is the mis-placed passes up the pitch which are more worrying to me. Of course passes will be mis-placed in the opposing half, but these "mistakes" are often leading to goals too because the team is not set up to deal with them. That is my worry. And you can't blame the defence for that in isolation.

So I guess we are talking at crossed purposes.

i think neither of us are wrong in what we are saying, as regards my point yes mistakes do happen, but this often? IMO we need to find out our best backline, this is still undecided as LB is pretty much up for grabs with Enrique's horrendous form & Robinson although impressive is very young. IMO a keeper will always perform better with a settled/tried and tester backline in front of him. The wing backs leaving us open and vunerable when they bomb on is also apart of my point and yup we aren't setup right just yet.

For the record i completely agree with what you are saying about the midfield & how loose we are there. And my 'solid defence ' comment was just a snippet of my worries about our current setup

[el matador]

Yup - that makes.

The more I think about it, the less I think that it is the individual mistakes or bad luck that is scuppering us, but the system itself.

The mistakes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

It boils down to basic risk management. Identify the risks, then find out what you can do to minimise them, then implement a balanced strategy to deal with them.

at the moment i think its a case of implementation.

we're starting to dominate possession but when we give it away its panic stations because not everyones singing off the same sheet. Its probably a bit of both but we're too easy to score against.

[danperkins]

Is Rogers being too rigid about implementing his philosophy? Should he give some leeway and time for certain players to adapt instead of forcing this rigid way of playing on everyone? Completely changing the way certain players play the game of football all their lives takes time.

AVB came into Chelsea with big ideas, obviously not the same as Rogers but he wanted to implement his way of playing. The problem was he didn't allow any time for his ideas to settle into the current team and for players to adapt, instead he tried to overhaul the team his way,straight away and Chelsea suffered.

Obviously different scenarios as regards what happened, but my point being sometimes as seen with AVB, a new manager at a club that have a set way of thinking and want to implement a certain rigid system or certain selection of players, when you try and do this full tilt.... sometimes it can backfire.

Lets hope we can get it sorted sooner rather than later.

[dom9]

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

I have no idea what his philosophy is apart from to keep the ball as much as possible. There are many nuances, but I have no idea what they are. Does he know? Do the players know? Is it the execution that is the problem? Is it a flaw in the strategy?

We will find out soon enough.

[BigChief]

How is it possible to dominate every single game with 60% - 70% possession, but yet ship an average of more than 2 goals per game? Bonkers.

Taking away the goals against West Brom and Arsenal where we didn't have any kind of influence (therefore irrelevant to this argument), around 5 to 6 goals have so far been conceded by sloppy, lazy players (Brendan's words).

Butterfingers Reina, stupid backheel Agger, Skrtel x 2, Johnson and Gerrard x 2 have made unforgivable and severely punished unforced errors. If we could take back all of these goals we would be in the top four of the premiership and not having this discussion about Brendan's style of play.

Lets really examine Brendan's style of play when our senior stars stop playing like stupid idiots.

[danperkins]

Taking away the goals against West Brom and Arsenal where we didn't have any kind of influence (therefore irrelevant to this argument), around 5 to 6 goals have so far been conceded by sloppy, lazy players (Brendan's words).

Butterfingers Reina, stupid backheel Agger, Skrtel x 2, Johnson and Gerrard x 2 have made unforgivable and severely punished unforced errors. If we could take back all of these goals we would be in the top four of the premiership and not having this discussion about Brendan's style of play.

Lets really examine Brendan's style of play when our senior stars stop playing like stupid idiots.

well said my sentiments exactly.

[dom9]

Taking away the goals against West Brom and Arsenal where we didn't have any kind of influence (therefore irrelevant to this argument), around 5 to 6 goals have so far been conceded by sloppy, lazy players (Brendan's words).

Butterfingers Reina, stupid backheel Agger, Skrtel x 2, Johnson and Gerrard x 2 have made unforgivable and severely punished unforced errors. If we could take back all of these goals we would be in the top four of the premiership and not having this discussion about Brendan's style of play.

Lets really examine Brendan's style of play when our senior stars stop playing like stupid idiots.

We totally dominated possession in the first half against West Brom. In fact, we totally dominated until the sending off.

From the BBC's match report:

Liverpool had plenty of the ball and plenty of opportunities in the first 45 minutes but were undermined by a failing that troubled them throughout last season, namely an inability to convert the presentable chances they created.

[el matador]

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

I have no idea what his philosophy is apart from to keep the ball as much as possible. There are many nuances, but I have no idea what they are. Does he know? Do the players know? Is it the execution that is the problem? Is it a flaw in the strategy?

We will find out soon enough.

his idea is to keep the ball at all times without taking too many risks.

Players like gerrard and suarez are risky players by nature because they're attackers and they want to try things. Thats no big secret because thats what attackers do - the make things happen.

any pass you play in the final third is risky because of the organisation of the defences involved and the compactness of the space available to play in. Gerrrad yesterday looked to play a pass to suarez but it was intercepted and ten seconds later we're another goal behind.

That's what he doesnt want. Death by (boring) football but he needs time to get these ideas across to his players. Patience isnt something you can teach because some players have it and others like suarez just dont.