Lucas

[Kenneth]

Sorry mate, couldn't resist.

[rnevitt]

Certainly played well this season. Very good when the games are tight as yesterday. Struggles more when at home to the lesser sides, but it was encouraging to see him get beyond Suarez yesterday. If he could add that to his game, he would become the complete midfielder.

[Gibbo]

He's our Darren Fletcher, not everyone rates him but if you watch him closely you realize he's actually a good player.

[Craig_H]

Sorry mate, couldn't resist.

He's firmly cemented his role as being the 'protector' of the back four, rather than a 'box to box' midfielder, since i posted that

[razortoddy]

Posted by me in August 2009. For once in my life I got something right! [ Lucas bashing seems to be the immediate response to a Liverpool loss. Rafa is right, the senior players need to step up to the plate. Villa's first goal was a fluke,Carragher and Torres were nowhere near for the second and Gerrard's tackle for the third was poor. What did Lucas do wrong? A 10 man defence in front of him in a narrow part of the field and unless he is Molby-like he is ****e.Get off the lad's back, he plays for Liverpool ie us. He never hides, always wants the ball,gives 100%, is only young, worked hard at building up his strength and possesses good qualities and no little skill. Ronaldo was average for the first season at Manure. Get off Lucas's back and be what we are supposed to be "Supporters" ie somebody who supports their team, all of them. Is Gerrard good enough because on last nights performance you would have to say no? Everyone has offdays. We are human not machines. Support.]
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[Craig_H]

That's not to say he was brilliant in his first year or two, because he definitely wasnt. Some of the criticism was fairly on the mark, some was OTT.

His progress has been superb and he's now 10 times the player he was 2-3 years ago.

[RedReet]

That's not to say he was brilliant in his first year or two, because he definitely wasnt. Some of the criticism was fairly on the mark, some was OTT.

His progress has been superb and he's now 10 times the player he was 2-3 years ago.

Which criticism was that out of curiosity? Considering he had the balls to leave his comfort zone and move to a notoriously tough league in a new country at such a young age and had to try and stand out ahead of world class talents in Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard, then I don’t know what people expected. From day one, the coaches, manager and his team mates sang his praises, some fans could see the potential, but the majority were just happy to have another scapegoat and revelled in dishing out abuse. The fact that he was aware that he had to take the fans blame for other players mistakes and couldn’t pick up a newspaper is hardly a sign of constructive criticism or a good advertisement for other young players contemplating taking on the challenge.

Considering his attitude and commitment from day 1 has been superb, I still wouldn’t have considered the ‘criticism’ fair even if he had of flopped. There is no doubt the fans made life a lot harder for Lucas in England when we should have been showing him support, and we are very fortunate that he is still here proving all the doubters wrong.

[Craig_H]

Which criticism was that out of curiosity? Considering he had the balls to leave his comfort zone and move to a notoriously tough league in a new country at such a young age and had to try and stand out ahead of world class talents in Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard, then I don’t know what people expected. From day one, the coaches, manager and his team mates sang his praises, some fans could see the potential, but the majority were just happy to have another scapegoat and revelled in dishing out abuse. The fact that he was aware that he had to take the fans blame for other players mistakes and couldn’t pick up a newspaper is hardly a sign of constructive criticism or a good advertisement for other young players contemplating taking on the challenge.

Considering his attitude and commitment from day 1 has been superb, I still wouldn’t have considered the ‘criticism’ fair even if he had of flopped. There is no doubt the fans made life a lot harder for Lucas in England when we should have been showing him support, and we are very fortunate that he is still here proving all the doubters wrong.

Why do you struggle to differentiate between criticism and 'abuse' ? There's a marked difference, and it irritates me when people lump the two as one, when they're worlds apart.

Which criticism was that out of curiosity?

The criticism of his performances, when they werent of a high enough standard - and as i said, some of it was fair enough, because whatever the reasons (and as valid as they may have been), there was a time when he simply wasnt performing to the required level. It's not 'bad' to point that out, and nor is it 'abuse'.

Whether you consider the criticism fair or not is down to you. If someone isnt performing well and is criticised for not performing well, that's fair enough. Whether we like it or not.

Unless you're suggesting that no criticism should ever be dished out, regardless of how someone is performing. Which, IMO, would be silly.

[rudedog]

Why do you struggle to differentiate between criticism and 'abuse' ? There's a marked difference, and it irritates me when people lump the two as one, when they're worlds apart.



The criticism of his performances, when they werent of a high enough standard - and as i said, some of it was fair enough, because whatever the reasons (and as valid as they may have been), there was a time when he simply wasnt performing to the required level. It's not 'bad' to point that out, and nor is it 'abuse'.

Whether you consider the criticism fair or not is down to you. If someone isnt performing well and is criticised for not performing well, that's fair enough. Whether we like it or not.

Unless you're suggesting that no criticism should ever be dished out, regardless of how someone is performing. Which, IMO, would be silly.

The worst of the abuse Lucas got was in the match day threads. I can remember you having this whole abuse/criticism debate before and it transpired that you didn't read the match day threads. It also transpired that the mods removed some of the OTT comments on these threads.

[Craig_H]

The worst of the abuse Lucas got was in the match day threads. I can remember you having this whole abuse/criticism debate before and it transpired that you didn't read the match day threads. It also transpired that the mods removed some of the OTT comments on these threads.

That's fair enough, but you cant legislate for heat of the moment matchday thread nonsense. I'm talking about in the bigger scheme of things, rather than what 12 blokes say in a matchday thread on a forum

[RedReet]

Why do you struggle to differentiate between criticism and 'abuse' ? There's a marked difference, and it irritates me when people lump the two as one, when they're worlds apart.


The criticism of his performances, when they werent of a high enough standard - and as i said, some of it was fair enough, because whatever the reasons (and as valid as they may have been), there was a time when he simply wasnt performing to the required level. It's not 'bad' to point that out, and nor is it 'abuse'.

Whether you consider the criticism fair or not is down to you. If someone isnt performing well and is criticised for not performing well, that's fair enough. Whether we like it or not.

Unless you're suggesting that no criticism should ever be dished out, regardless of how someone is performing. Which, IMO, would be silly.

Well it also annoys me when people don’t appreciate the detrimental effect unfair criticism can have on both the player and the club, and how easily this criticism can develop into abuse which was a fine line that that was crossed more often than not when it came to Lucas. I also get the impression that when it’s you who is one of the critics then it’s all fair game and fully justified but you don’t necessarily allow other people that same luxury. A prime example would be the continued mocking of Rudo (I think) over his criticism of Meireles which you didn’t agree with. I didn’t agree with it either and still find it laughable that someone would write him off after a few months, but as a proven International with a hefty price tag, is at that more absurd to expect him to make an instant impression than to expect a young 19 year old kid from Brazil to take the PL by storm in his first year or two?

This post was rushed as I've to get to a meeting, but I'm sure you get the gist.

[Craig_H]

Well it also annoys me when people don’t appreciate the detrimental effect unfair criticism can have on both the player and the club, and how easily this criticism can develop into abuse which was a fine line that that was crossed more often than not when it came to Lucas. I also get the impression that when it’s you who is one of the critics then it’s all fair game and fully justified but you don’t necessarily allow other people that same luxury. A prime example would be the continued mocking of Rudo (I think) over his criticism of Meireles which you didn’t agree with. I didn’t agree with it either and still find it laughable that someone would write him off after a few months, but as a proven International with a hefty price tag, is at that more absurd to expect him to make an instant impression than to expect a young 19 year old kid from Brazil to take the PL by storm in his first year or two?

This post was rushed as I've to get to a meeting, but I'm sure you get the gist.

If a player isnt performing, why is it unfair to say so? What's unfair about that? There's nothing to be gained by pretending someone's doing well if they arent.

The difference between Meireles and Lucas is that Meireles wasnt looking out of place and poor, whereas IMO Lucas was, in his early days.

Also Meireles was playing under Hodgson, when there was no credible judgement to be made about any player, because everyone was playing ****e.

From your posts, i get the impression that anytime anyone says a player isnt performing, that's automatically taken as 'abuse'. I also get the impression that we should never be allowed to be critical of a player's performances. I disagree with both of these two standpoints.

Furthermore, you can criticise a player, acknowledge that there are reasons for his poor performance, acknowledge that he may need more time, and yet still be justified in criticising them for those performances at the time. I dont see a need to make those things mutually exclusive.

[Exiled_red]

A slightly different issue (as it was at Anfield rather than on the forum), but wasn't it Lucas who got booed when he came on to the pitch (as sub) in one game ~2 or 3 years ago.

I'm not sure when or the exact circumstances but I certainly remember it happening and I think the player involved was Lucas. Which shows that alot of people didn't rate him and how much he has improved since.

[Craig_H]

Booing a player at the game is pathetic.

[danperkins]

Lucas wasn't playing well for quite some time, the criticism he got was justified, i don't condone the personal abuse and booing though, and now he is playing well and getting all the plaudits.

It's all good, fair play to him for upping his game and cementing a role in our team as the shield in front of the back four, well done.