Lucas

[Exiled_red]

Booing a player at the game is pathetic.

[Craig_H]

Lucas wasn't playing well for quite some time, the criticism he got was justified, i don't condone the personal abuse and booing though, and now he is playing well and getting all the plaudits.

It's all good, fair play to him for upping his game and cementing a role in our team as the shield in front of the back four, well done.

Totally agree.

He's quite rightly now getting tonnes of plaudits, because he's been performing brilliantly on a consistent basis. Likewise, as he gets plaudits now for his performances, he was justifiably being criticised when the performances werent good enough. Pleasingly, it's been a long while since he has failed to perform, and long may that continue.

[yamiedo]

Any manager would love a player like Lucas and know he is essential to the team. Fans can be fickle at times because those watching won't see him do anything spectacular but more of the dirty work. He is key to our team and I'm delighted to see him getting the credit he deserves now. He has proved everyone wrong and that shows unbelievable determination.

[Shaggy]

His attitude is an inspiration. Seriously I think he's a ****ing brilliant role model for any young player at the club.

[dww]

His attitude is an inspiration. Seriously I think he's a ****ing brilliant role model for any young player at the club.

[Craig_H]

His attitude is an inspiration. Seriously I think he's a ****ing brilliant role model for any young player at the club.

Without doubt.

[RedReet]

If a player isnt performing, why is it unfair to say so? What's unfair about that? There's nothing to be gained by pretending someone's doing well if they arent.

The difference between Meireles and Lucas is that Meireles wasnt looking out of place and poor, whereas IMO Lucas was, in his early days.

Also Meireles was playing under Hodgson, when there was no credible judgement to be made about any player, because everyone was playing ****e.

From your posts, i get the impression that anytime anyone says a player isnt performing, that's automatically taken as 'abuse'. I also get the impression that we should never be allowed to be critical of a player's performances. I disagree with both of these two standpoints.

Furthermore, you can criticise a player, acknowledge that there are reasons for his poor performance, acknowledge that he may need more time, and yet still be justified in criticising them for those performances at the time. I dont see a need to make those things mutually exclusive.

There is nothing at all wrong with people saying someone isn’t performing, but that isn’t what was happening and you know it. No one was pretending that Lucas was playing brilliantly either, just pointing out that he was nowhere near as bad as people were making out and deserved some time and patience. Fair enough, a case can be made for people going OTT when he put in a half decent performance, but that was purely an inevitable consequence of the relentless ‘criticism’ he was receiving.

Meireles was maybe an extreme example, but just one that was fresh in my mind. What I will say, is that currently Shelvey looks out of place and poor, so do you think it’s fair if we all get on his back? Sorry, that’s not right. We are allowed to criticise his every move as he’s not playing well and deserves it, then wash our hands of blame when the criticism becomes personal.

From my posts, you should get the impression that I generally don’t get involved too much when it comes to criticising one of our players as usually every base has been covered by the time I catch up. I will contribute occasionally though and am not blinded by rose tinted glasses, defending every player under the sun. I have had this same argument with you many times, but it’s only ever involved 3 players. I often felt Lucas, Kuyt and Alonso were heavily criticised when they didn’t deserve it, and more often than not got involved. That’s not to say I didn’t think they had poor spells in the team, just that I don’t think the criticism was warranted under the circumstances.

“Furthermore, you can criticise a player, acknowledge that there are reasons for his poor performance, acknowledge that he may need more time, and yet still be justified in criticising them for those performances at the time. I dont see a need to make those things mutually exclusive.”

This I have no problems with, but this rarely happens and certainly didn’t with the vast majority when it came to Lucas. You can go on pretending that it did, that everyone was perfectly rational in their discussions and we can recycle this conversation again in a few months.

[RedReet]

Lucas wasn't playing well for quite some time, the criticism he got was justified, i don't condone the personal abuse and booing though, and now he is playing well and getting all the plaudits.

It's all good, fair play to him for upping his game and cementing a role in our team as the shield in front of the back four, well done.

Your 'nemesis' was playing very well last year yet you still took every opportunity to have a cheap dig. In you opinion, when was it fair to stop the 'justified' criticism and allow him some of the praise many other thought he deserved?

[Craig_H]

I'll take these bit by bit...

There is nothing at all wrong with people saying someone isn’t performing, but that isn’t what was happening and you know it.

I hate that 'and you know it' nonsense. If i 'know' something, i'll say it, i'm not hiding anything. The fact that i dont see the voices of a small minority being daft as being reflective of the overall view, is why i dont think there was too much more than people saying he wasnt performing and that his performance level at the time, wasnt good enough.

Of course there were some people going OTT, but in the same way that i ignore idiots who boo players at the game, i also dont offer any real credibility (and therefore, not much comment) towards people going OTT with Lucas. A small minority did, but that doesnt reflect the overall support and likewise, i'm of the preference to dismiss and ignore the daft stuff, rather than offer it attention it doesnt deserve.

No one was pretending that Lucas was playing brilliantly either, just pointing out that he was nowhere near as bad as people were making out and deserved some time and patience. Fair enough, a case can be made for people going OTT when he put in a half decent performance, but that was purely an inevitable consequence of the relentless ‘criticism’ he was receiving.

I never said anyone was pretending he was playing brilliantly. I just said i see no benefit in pretending someone's doing alright when they arent. And i still feel that way. How bad he was, is a matter of opinion and again, 'as bad as people were making out' - which people? It depends who you listen to and, again, i dont listen to people who go drastically OTT.

Meireles was maybe an extreme example, but just one that was fresh in my mind. What I will say, is that currently Shelvey looks out of place and poor, so do you think it’s fair if we all get on his back? Sorry, that’s not right. We are allowed to criticise his every move as he’s not playing well and deserves it, then wash our hands of blame when the criticism becomes personal.

Again, i dont know your definition of 'get on his back'. You seem to equate all criticism to 'getting on his back' - well, i dont. I think he's looked a bit out of place, nowhere near ready to play for our first team, clearly not a winger and has a lot of developing to do before he's good enough.

Is that getting on his back? Is it an honest opinion? Is it abuse?

I honestly dont know where you draw the line, but for me, none of that is 'abusive' and i'm not 'getting on his back', i'm just saying it like i see it. If you think it's 'getting on his back' or 'abuse', i would be keen to hear your version of how we can be critical, without being 'abusive' or getting on a player's back. If there's a way to do it which i am not aware of, i'm genuinely keen to learn it.

From my posts, you should get the impression that I generally don’t get involved too much when it comes to criticising one of our players as usually every base has been covered by the time I catch up. I will contribute occasionally though and am not blinded by rose tinted glasses, defending every player under the sun. I have had this same argument with you many times, but it’s only ever involved 3 players. I often felt Lucas, Kuyt and Alonso were heavily criticised when they didn’t deserve it, and more often than not got involved. That’s not to say I didn’t think they had poor spells in the team, just that I don’t think the criticism was warranted under the circumstances.

Not too sure about the Alonso bit, when it comes to my own opinions which i've expressed down the years. But certainly, i didnt think Lucas was good enough in his earlier times at LFC, but he has improved massively now and i'm delighted. Same with Kuyt who had some poorer times, but likewise some great times too.

I simply state when i think someone has been poor, and likewise when i think he's been good. What is wrong with that, i'm not sure.

I dont think i ever said anything like "Kuyt will never be good enough" or "Lucas will never make it here", so i dont think i've actually written players off, i think i've just expressed a viewpoint based on how they were playing at a particular time.

This I have no problems with, but this rarely happens and certainly didn’t with the vast majority when it came to Lucas. You can go on pretending that it did, that everyone was perfectly rational in their discussions and we can recycle this conversation again in a few months.

I am not pretending anything, to be honest. I am not the voice for others, and whether others did something or not, i cant legislate for or be accountable for. I can only speak for myself. How you and i viewed some of the Lucas comments on here may differ in that i think there was less 'abuse' than you seem to think there was, and i also think your version of 'abuse' was simply my version of criticism. But each to their own. Again, i dont claim that nobody was abusive over Lucas or that everyone was rational, but as i said, when people are utterly irrational or abusive, i tend to ignore their comments or quickly dismiss them. So perhaps i've dismissed them to the point of forgetting them, who knows. If i have, that's fine though because when it comes to daft overreactions, i'd prefer to forget them than afford them more thought and consideration than they merit.

[RedReet]

I’m reluctantly replying out of courtesy as you obviously put a bit of thought into your reply and would be rude to leave it after I started things. I do think we should draw a line under it for another 6 months though for everyone else’s sake as much as ours.

I'll take these bit by bit...



I hate that 'and you know it' nonsense. If i 'know' something, i'll say it, i'm not hiding anything. The fact that i dont see the voices of a small minority being daft as being reflective of the overall view, is why i dont think there was too much more than people saying he wasnt performing and that his performance level at the time, wasnt good enough.

That’s the major problem with this discussion. We seamlessly drift between minority/majority/personal opinions adding to the confusion, and you know it.

Of course there were some people going OTT, but in the same way that i ignore idiots who boo players at the game, i also dont offer any real credibility (and therefore, not much comment) towards people going OTT with Lucas. A small minority did, but that doesnt reflect the overall support and likewise, i'm of the preference to dismiss and ignore the daft stuff, rather than offer it attention it doesnt deserve.


That’s the problem for me. People who boo at matches are brainless morons who can’t think for themselves and happily jump from one bandwagon to another. If they see/hear other fans constantly criticising a player, whether it’s done in affair way or not, they are more than likely gonna contribute in a way that they see fit which unfortunately is booing.

I never said anyone was pretending he was playing brilliantly. I just said i see no benefit in pretending someone's doing alright when they arent. And i still feel that way. How bad he was, is a matter of opinion and again, 'as bad as people were making out' - which people? It depends who you listen to and, again, i dont listen to people who go drastically OTT.

I’ve neither the time or the inclination to name and shame, but I could count on one hand the number of people that I knew a few years that were giving Lucas a fair chance (in real life that is). You couldn’t mention Lucas in a reasonable conversation without being ridiculed.

Again, i dont know your definition of 'get on his back'. You seem to equate all criticism to 'getting on his back' - well, i dont. I think he's looked a bit out of place, nowhere near ready to play for our first team, clearly not a winger and has a lot of developing to do before he's good enough.

Is that getting on his back? Is it an honest opinion? Is it abuse?

I honestly dont know where you draw the line, but for me, none of that is 'abusive' and i'm not 'getting on his back', i'm just saying it like i see it. If you think it's 'getting on his back' or 'abuse', i would be keen to hear your version of how we can be critical, without being 'abusive' or getting on a player's back. If there's a way to do it which i am not aware of, i'm genuinely keen to learn it.

There is nothing wrong with that and I imagine a lot of people share that opinion, but that always wasn’t the case with Lucas.

Not too sure about the Alonso bit, when it comes to my own opinions which i've expressed down the years. But certainly, i didnt think Lucas was good enough in his earlier times at LFC, but he has improved massively now and i'm delighted. Same with Kuyt who had some poorer times, but likewise some great times too.

The Alonso discussion was less about him and more about the fans treatment of him. Similarly to this, I thought too many people were overly critical of him at a time and you disagreed.

I simply state when i think someone has been poor, and likewise when i think he's been good. What is wrong with that, i'm not sure.

I dont think i ever said anything like "Kuyt will never be good enough" or "Lucas will never make it here", so i dont think i've actually written players off, i think i've just expressed a viewpoint based on how they were playing at a particular time.

TBF, I think you did. I remember having a long winded argument with you about Kuyt, saying his poor form was down to his Da’s death explaining that it was the circumstances that was the problem, not the player. A year or so later, Kuyt was playing well again but we got into an almost identical argument about Lucas where again I was trying to say it was a similar scenario and you should give him a chance as Kuyt already proved how easily things can change.

I am not pretending anything, to be honest. I am not the voice for others, and whether others did something or not, i cant legislate for or be accountable for. I can only speak for myself. How you and i viewed some of the Lucas comments on here may differ in that i think there was less 'abuse' than you seem to think there was, and i also think your version of 'abuse' was simply my version of criticism. But each to their own. Again, i dont claim that nobody was abusive over Lucas or that everyone was rational, but as i said, when people are utterly irrational or abusive, i tend to ignore their comments or quickly dismiss them. So perhaps i've dismissed them to the point of forgetting them, who knows. If i have, that's fine though because when it comes to daft overreactions, i'd prefer to forget them than afford them more thought and consideration than they merit.

Again, this is similar to my first point. I can be taking about experiences in the bar, in work, you could be talking about at Anfield or your own personal views. Maybe by the time you got home from matches Mods had already removed much of the abuse from this site.

[little dave hedgehog]

i watched the 60 minutes thing again last night and something stood out.

he said when he arrived at liverpool, the pace of the game meant that he couldn't get up and back like he had in brazil, and so he had to choose to either attack or hold as a midfielder, and that at that moment he felt more comfortable defending in a new league, so he chose the holding role. strange that many have accused rafa of trying to force him to be something he's not as a means of developing him.

[RedReet]

The 60 mins show was a good watch.

I was surprised by that too, always thought rafa was trying to improve his defensive skills before letting Lucas play his more natural game which we assumed would be more attacking.

[Craig_H]

That’s the major problem with this discussion. We seamlessly drift between minority/majority/personal opinions adding to the confusion, and you know it.

Well let's not have it then and agree to disagree, if it present a major problem.

That’s the problem for me. People who boo at matches are brainless morons who can’t think for themselves and happily jump from one bandwagon to another. If they see/hear other fans constantly criticising a player, whether it’s done in affair way or not, they are more than likely gonna contribute in a way that they see fit which unfortunately is booing.

The prospect that some idiots might take it as justification to boo players doesnt mean we shouldnt ever be able to make criticisms. I cant legislate for idiots and i'm not going to not express an opinion because of how idiots might interpret it.

I’ve neither the time or the inclination to name and shame, but I could count on one hand the number of people that I knew a few years that were giving Lucas a fair chance (in real life that is). You couldn’t mention Lucas in a reasonable conversation without being ridiculed.

So your point is that lots of people werent giving Lucas a chance. I think a lot of people were criticising what were less than sufficient performances, and a few may have gone over the top. Same as how 40,000 reds went to Athens in 2007 and a few did idiotic things. That's life.

There is nothing wrong with that and I imagine a lot of people share that opinion, but that always wasn’t the case with Lucas.

Again, that's life isnt it?

The Alonso discussion was less about him and more about the fans treatment of him. Similarly to this, I thought too many people were overly critical of him at a time and you disagreed.

I love how this (although may not be what you're saying) comes across as though i am wrong to disagree Que sera sera.

TBF, I think you did. I remember having a long winded argument with you about Kuyt, saying his poor form was down to his Da’s death explaining that it was the circumstances that was the problem, not the player. A year or so later, Kuyt was playing well again but we got into an almost identical argument about Lucas where again I was trying to say it was a similar scenario and you should give him a chance as Kuyt already proved how easily things can change.

TBF, i dont think i did. You may well have told me it was down to his father's death and i may well have said something along the lines of, that's fair enough but if he's not performing, whatever the reason, we are carrying a passenger and shouldnt be. And i stand by that view, if someone isnt performing, whatever the reason, they shouldnt really be in the team.

I still dont think i ever said 'he will never be good enough' or 'he will never come good'.

As for 'should give him a chance' - again, i dont see what your interpretation of this is, or of what i said, was. If i say someone isnt playing well and shouldnt be in the team, that isnt me saying they should never play for us again or should never be given another shot. If they arent playing well, drop them and there'll come a point where they get another chance to perform. How is that not giving someone a chance? Same with Shelvey now, i dont think he's currently good enough to be in the side and for whatever reason, he doesnt warrant a place in the team. He may come good, there are obviously reasons why he isnt performing well and in time, he could well develop excellently and be a good player. Right now, he isnt that, but he could become one. What part of that is writing him off or not giving him a chance? Of course things can change. I am simply commenting on things as they are in the here and now, as i did with Lucas and Kuyt.

Again, this is similar to my first point. I can be taking about experiences in the bar, in work, you could be talking about at Anfield or your own personal views. Maybe by the time you got home from matches Mods had already removed much of the abuse from this site.

Indeed, we can all only speak from the position that we see things.

I felt it was the naturally courteous thing to do to reply to you, and i agree that we should indeed draw a line under this one and agree to disagree.

[danperkins]

Totally agree.

He's quite rightly now getting tonnes of plaudits, because he's been performing brilliantly on a consistent basis. Likewise, as he gets plaudits now for his performances, he was justifiably being criticised when the performances werent good enough. Pleasingly, it's been a long while since he has failed to perform, and long may that continue.

very much so. He's a big boy he can't took it and knuckled down, can only have respect for that type of attitude.

[danperkins]

Your 'nemesis' was playing very well last year yet you still took every opportunity to have a cheap dig. In you opinion, when was it fair to stop the 'justified' criticism and allow him some of the praise many other thought he deserved?

Jaysus your tedious. He got rightly criticised for sub standard performances over a long period of time, have you never criticised a player for not playing well: Cole/Dosenna/Ngog/Spearing/Keane/Konch/Pennant/Plessis etc, sure ya have and if you haven't your either deluded (no offense) or completely blinded!! Lucas got his head down and worked on his game. He's has been transformed into a shield in front of the defence and is flourishing in that role. Since he has been playing well i have said he has been playing well(for quite some time now infact). Me and i'd imagine thousands of other LFC supporters share exactly the same opinion on this particular matter.

Credit where credit is due just the same as criticism where criticism is due. He is a professional footballer and is rightly open to criticism like every other professional athlete. He got it deservedly so, he put the head down and now look at him, and rightly so is getting the plaudits.

Enough said on the matter, you seem to be taking this very personally and the nemesis comment was clearly in jest. So relax red it's all good