Martin Skrtel

[Daffy Duck]

Why would you build a defence around a player that you admit has been shaky?

Because I think that our current setup and the players surrounding him would make Thiago Silva look shaky (no that's not saying that he's as good as him) just a cluster**** of nervousness all around. IMO he's been the only one that has shown some promise and I don't think the club can afford to spend more crazy money on a completely new defensive line-up.

[Shaggy]

* He was a regular in the defence last season, particularly the second half of the season and despite that our problems at the back continued.

Of course, we will always have problems at the back no matter who plays. Also, he made 18 PL starts. Not exactly a regular.

* He makes basic errors at the back just as much as the rest of them (opinion as opposed to fact).

Completely disagree. He demonstrably does not make as many errors as Lovren, Skrtel or Toure.

* He gets huge credit on Twitter, but this is mostly based on him supposedly not being a Rodgers signing.

How do you know that's what people base it on? I think they probably base it on his performances tbh.

* If Rodgers had signed him this season from So'ton, people would be calling him ****.

As if.

* Despite him being a huge figure head for the club, being a local boy and from their youth academy, PSG couldn't wait to ship him out the door.

There was a lot of politics going on there and they put all their eggs in Thiago Silva's basket. Besides, Chelsea couldn't wait to ship Sturridge out. Means nothing.

[DannyMan2006]

Because I think that our current setup and the players surrounding him would make Thiago Silva look shaky (no that's not saying that he's as good as him) just a cluster**** of nervousness all around. IMO he's been the only one that has shown some promise and I don't think the club can afford to spend more crazy money on a completely new defensive line-up.

I would expect a top centre half to come in and organise that lot. That's what Carra did with Skrtel and whoever he played with.

The fact we always look all over the place no matter who plays and who doesn't, tells me we don't have anyone at the back who's capable of organising them. When Carra played under Rodges we did look better, despite him being past his best.

[Daffy Duck]

The difference being that if you're that bad, you'll eventually get caught out, which is why our stats are so much worse with Skrtel, despite yesterday's anomaly, whereas we were always a better team with Agger. That's not manipulating the stats, it's a fact.

Sorry that I disagree, but I don't think that these clean sheet stats show a complete picture; First of all, because they could so easily be quite different - the Stoke penalty, that I have already mentioned, while on the other hand you have a defence of Flanno - Kolo - Skrtel - Cissokho denying Arsenal a single decent goalscoring opportunity, but losing the clean sheet because Gerrard conceded a completely pointless penalty at 5-0. These are not isolated cases and I think that the percentage balance could be a bit different if stuff like that had not occured. Secondly, it is something you agreed with in this thread, it is looking at the player and seeing that his performance was really bad - that's something that I see almost every time that Skrtel plays, and something that I saw almost everytime that Agger played.
I don't know, maybe he did have some sort of a calming influence on the team, the result of which was a better performance all round, but individually his performances were nowhere near something that I would want to see in our team.

Also, you took great offence to these stats being posted, but they were in response to an article about our stats with and without certain players.

I didn't take any offence I just though that these stats were from yesterday's match and that they showed Skrtel to be better than Sakho? (Something which was clearly not the case).

And please, 'certain players',I hope that you're not trying to make this look like I'm defending Skrtel. I'm not and I think that he should be gone.

[G]

Of course, we will always have problems at the back no matter who plays. Also, he made 18 PL starts. Not exactly a regular.



Completely disagree. He demonstrably does not make as many errors as Lovren, Skrtel or Toure.



How do you know that's what people base it on? I think they probably base it on his performances tbh.



As if.



There was a lot of politics going on there and they put all their eggs in Thiago Silva's basket. Besides, Chelsea couldn't wait to ship Sturridge out. Means nothing.

[RedReet]

Sorry that I disagree, but I don't think that these clean sheet stats show a complete picture; First of all, because they could so easily be quite different - the Stoke penalty, that I have already mentioned, while on the other hand you have a defence of Flanno - Kolo - Skrtel - Cissokho denying Arsenal a single decent goalscoring opportunity, but losing the clean sheet because Gerrard conceded a completely pointless penalty at 5-0. These are not isolated cases and I think that the percentage balance could be a bit different if stuff like that had not occured. Secondly, it is something you agreed with in this thread, it is looking at the player and seeing that his performance was really bad - that's something that I see almost every time that Skrtel plays, and something that I saw almost everytime that Agger played.
I don't know, maybe he did have some sort of a calming influence on the team, the result of which was a better performance all round, but individually his performances were nowhere near something that I would want to see in our team.

Of course the stats don't tell the full story, but when there is such a big variance from when a single player does or doesn't play, it makes a pretty convincing argument.

I've admitted that Agger wasn't at his very best last year and I watched just as many matches as you did, but you seem to be letting the odd mistake overshadow everything else he brought to the team.

It's not just the clean sheets, we lost 1 of 16 matches (a narrow 2-1 defeat away to Chelsea) and drew 1 (3-3 Everton which could have been a win but for a late offside decision), the other 14 we won, which obviously a lot has to do with Suarez, but equally we were still winning when he was suspended.

I just can't see how we could carry such a 'liability' and get those results, especially if those doing the carrying were Mignolet, Johnson and Enrique.

At the end of the day, there is nothing I can do to prove we were a better team when Agger played, other than show the stats and nothing seemingly will change your mind that he was ****. I've had similar discussions the the past about Lucas and even said the same this year that we play better with him in the team, even when he doesn't play the best himself. I didn't think Agger was that bad last year, despite the odd mistake, but we were still a better team with him than without. You think we won all these matches and kept a much higher ratio of clean sheets despite him, and that's fair enough.

I didn't take any offence I just though that these stats were from yesterday's match and that they showed Skrtel to be better than Sakho? (Something which was clearly not the case).

And please, 'certain players',I hope that you're not trying to make this look like I'm defending Skrtel. I'm not and I think that he should be gone.

I meant I posted the Agger stats after someone posted the article from Tomkins site comparing the stats when certain players do and don't play, so it was relevant to that. Nothing to do with Skrtel.

[ChesterDave]

Sakho has some improving to do but he is clearly our best centre back. Strong, committed, front foot, aggressive and very good on the ball. If Lovren comes back when he's fit again - especially at Sakho's expense - Brendan can get to ****.

Sahko looks like a rabbit in the headlights with the ball at his feet. And from what I've seen is hideously one-footed

[captainfog]

And play who in his place though?





He'd be great, was great (good? not jaw droppingly terrifying?) with someone like Carragher

Might have rose tinted specs on, but I'm fairly sure we didn't all despair at him alongside Carra

For now I'd play a back 2 of Sakho and Toure. But ideally I'd sell Shirtless and Lovren and replace them with better players.

He wasn't better with Carra though. He's always been garbage. Should have sold him years ago.

[baitman]

sell them all.

now, we just need to find someone better or its no good replacing one donkey for another.

[McDermotX]

If I based Sakho purely on his LFC performances I'd be calling him average at best.

I'm not going to lay this at your door, but here are a few points I have about about Sakho:

* He was a regular in the defence last season, particularly the second half of the season and despite that our problems at the back continued.

* He makes basic errors at the back just as much as the rest of them (opinion as opposed to fact).

* He gets huge credit on Twitter, but this is mostly based on him supposedly not being a Rodgers signing.

* If Rodgers had signed him this season from So'ton, people would be calling him ****.

* Despite him being a huge figure head for the club, being a local boy and from their youth academy, PSG couldn't wait to ship him out the door.

Now, I don't hate Sakho. But I don't think he's done anything in an LFC shirt to make me want him to be a regular. In fact, I'd say the only reason I'd want him to start is because the others have been so bad. For me, Rodgers could sell every defender CB at the club and I wouldn't care less.

Agree with almost all that, especially the bit in bold, only I'm not sure I'd trust his judgement on who to bring in. Sakho looks to have the qualities needed to become a decent CB, but the jury is still very much out on him for a variety of reasons, namely injuries plus the fact that he appears to lack the manager's trust. Was as bad as any of them yesterday IMO, especially the back post chance that they really should have equalised from, but the more we try to shoehorn in this 3 CB system, I fear we'll see our CBs exploited, especially with our wingback options of late.
Got lucky yesterday with a variety of errors from a few individuals, and a better side would surely have profited.

[tanner]

Agree with almost all that, especially the bit in bold, only I'm not sure I'd trust his judgement on who to bring in. Sakho looks to have the qualities needed to become a decent CB, but the jury is still very much out on him for a variety of reasons, namely injuries plus the fact that he appears to lack the manager's trust. Was as bad as any of them yesterday IMO, especially the back post chance that they really should have equalised from, but the more we try to shoehorn in this 3 CB system, I fear we'll see our CBs exploited, especially with our wingback options of late.
Got lucky yesterday with a variety of errors from a few individuals, and a better side would surely have profited.

Talk about absence making the heart grow fonder. Sakho was pretty bloody average at best before he vanished, the next thing you know he's our saviour. He just never looks comfortable to me, he's one of those lads who simply doesn't look natural on the ball, the way he passes it at times, like a kid who's never kicked a ball before.

I think we could sell them all off at a car boot sale tomorrow morning(probably make enough to cover entry and fuel), bring in 4 new defenders for Monday and we'd be no worse off.

[Kenneth]

He did a lovely Momo-esq slice straight into the air at about 70mins. He looks like every touch is a fortunate accident but if they keep working then fair enough.

[Muddled]

I think it's for those reasons (Tanner's, not Kenneth's) people don't rate Sakho. He looks cumbersome and odd, but if you look past his posture and how he actually defends, he is more than capable. His zipped ball to feet into midfield is his trademark, but he's actually very competent in an ever changing back line. Build our defence around him. He's young and this transitional period will help iron out his want to step up. Although, saying that, maybe it will be resolved by simply partnering him with somebody who doesn't always retreat.

[Shaggy]

Sakho's got the skillz to pay the billz!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh14DUmwlvY"]Bacary Sagna & Mamadou Sakho Show Off Impressive Skills During France Training Session - YouTube[/ame]

[RichC]

I think it's for those reasons (Tanner's, not Kenneth's) people don't rate Sakho. He looks cumbersome and odd, but if you look past his posture and how he actually defends, he is more than capable. His zipped ball to feet into midfield is his trademark, but he's actually very competent in an ever changing back line. Build our defence around him. He's young and this transitional period will help iron out his want to step up. Although, saying that, maybe it will be resolved by simply partnering him with somebody who doesn't always retreat.

Whilst he looks ungainly he's axtually very good on the ball and a good passer of the ball.

Partner him with the right player and I think we could have a decent pairing for a few years I mean he's been a mainstay of the French national side for the past couple of years so he must have something about him.