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    Originally posted by Hemingway View Post
    Actually, Brendan probably is a better manager, in some unquantifiable holistic sense. People tend to improve with time and experience, so he's had to have gotten better in at least some respects. The problem is that managers aren't judged in that unquantifiable holistic sense, in which space exist "good managers" and "bad managers." There are a few genuinely good managers and a few genuinely bad ones, but a whole lot in between who have only a fleeting impact on their club's success and are dependent on how they fit the club's situation (and getting some good fortune). Brendan exists in that group of not-bad, not-great managers - he had a good run in a good situation, and has since found out that the particular plan he used in that season just doesn't always apply.

    I've made this point before (as has Lecter, though more critically of BR), that the title challenge year couldn't be used as a blueprint because it was dependent on an unusual number of circumstances that weren't sustainable. Just off the top of my head, it required:

    - having two world-class strikers;
    - having those two world-class strikers outperform even their very high standards;
    - scoring an unusually high number of set piece goals, many of them coming early to break open games;
    - outperforming things like [statto alert] TSR, SoTR, and xG, which usually come back to earth with time;
    - hell, even getting an historic number of blocks (which, like set piece goals, regress to the mean season-on-season).

    I'd argue that all five of those things were unsustainable. Statistically, we know the final four are. You can beat them for awhile, but you always regress to the mean given enough time. But I also think that having two world-class strikers is likewise unsustainable, and people gloss over this. How many clubs can consistently have two world-class strikers? Real, Barca, PSG, Bayern...maybe United? Unless you're one of those really moneyed clubs, any plan that relies upon having two strikers of Suarez-Sturridge levels is pretty much bankrupt. If we held onto Suarez, or if we replaced him better, we could've delayed the downfall for awhile. But it would've come eventually. Except for that really elite few, it's an exceptionally difficult thing to maintain.

    A lot of people say the downfall from that season started when we tried to find another plan, instead of just getting goals on the pitch and seeing what happens. I disagree - the first aspect of that plan would've been hard to maintain and the other four were just straight-up statistical quirks that would've (and did) come back to earth. It was unsustainable to do all of that year on year. We were right to look for another plan; the problem was that BR couldn't make another plan work.

    That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve credit for that year, or that he can't find another method that might work in the future. I'm hopeful about 3 at the back, actually. But you (and he) can't just take what he did in 13-14 and say "See, he can do it, and he's even better now." No, he can do it if he has two world-class strikers and things break right. Which is not the same thing as being able to do it in the current situation. He's better, but not as lucky. He's better, but in a worse situation. And right now it's looking like he doesn't have the answers for it.

    Anyway, he's not a bad manager, certainly better than the last month or so, and I wouldn't be surprised if he goes on to be successful elsewhere once he gets some time away from the game to reassess things. I'd be happy enough if he could figure it out here. But I don't think he will, and based on his history of making grandiose statements before important games I'm not optimistic about getting the results he's hoping for.
    Very interesting post. What do those terms mean?

    Comment


      Originally posted by peekay View Post
      Very interesting post. What do those terms mean?
      Sorry, should've explained in the post. TSR is total shot ratio (shots for / shots for + shots against), basically the ratio of shots taken in a game that are being taken at the right end. SoTR is the same thing, but just for shots on target. And xG is expected goals, which takes shots, looks at their locations and how they were taken (the type of pass that led to them, the number of passes that led to them, and so on) and returns how often you'd expect a goal to be scored from that shot, based on historical data. They're all based on the idea that finishing tends toward randomness - it's easy to have a hot or cold streak that covers up how teams are actually performing - but that over the long-term teams will order based on how many shots they're getting vs. allowing, and the quality of those shots. None of the three are flawless, but they're pretty good, consistent indicators of performance, and over a long period of time (a couple of seasons, for instance) you can expect almost all clubs to perform to them, with a very few exceptions of teams who are doing stuff the numbers don't catch. They aren't fancy, but they're the gold standard as far as public domain stuff goes and are fairly predictive.

      We were tied for fourth in TSR and were third in SoTR in the title challenge year. James Grayson has a calculation of those two combined with a third metric, PDO (which is more confusing) that put us third in that season, closer to 5th than 1st. We were second or third in expected goals difference depending on whose model you look at, but overperformed expected goals scored substantially. (There was about an 8% chance of scoring as many goals as we did from the shots we took - the two world-class finishers account for some of that. We actually underperformed expected goals against, which evened things out a bit.)

      Effectively, all this just means that we should've expected to fall some anyway, even if nothing changed - which I think was totally unrealistic - because that year we were doing things and getting results that clubs struggle to repeat season-on-season. The set piece thing, for instance, was never going to happen again, and that was a huge part of our success that year. The season wasn't a fluke, but we did do better than we could be expected to do in the future, as many said when it was happening. I was a pretty big sceptic at the time but that's exactly what happened and I think it helps explain some of the decline experienced since.

      Comment


        TSR, Total Shots Ratio
        SoTR, Shots on Target Ratio

        ExpG stands for Expected Goals. It measures not how many goals a team has scored, but how many goals an average team would have scored with the amount and quality of shots created.
        Was muß, das muß.

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          Cheers Hemingway and Foresterbloke

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            Originally posted by marcus50bucks View Post
            "That's sad. I am the same man who nearly won us the league, but better. If you give me the tools, I'll do the work.
            Spent £300 million and ain't got the right tools

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              Originally posted by Liverpel View Post
              Was no one else a little bit bothered with how Rodgers pronounced hysteria as "high-steria"?
              In Klopp we trust.

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                Originally posted by Bender View Post
                Spent £300 million and ain't got the right tools
                It's brilliant. I love this one too where he states his players are pretty much ****

                “It’s not about proving people wrong. I think I have shown in the early stages of my management – without being arrogant – that with a talented group of players I can compete at the top end of the league. There are very short memories in football.

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                  Originally posted by vlahka View Post
                  It's brilliant. I love this one too where he states his players are pretty much ****
                  Quote:
                  “It’s not about proving people wrong. I think I have shown in the early stages of my management – without being arrogant – that with a talented group of players I can compete at the top end of the league. There are very short memories in football.

                  Comment


                    One unconvincing win against one of the worst teams in the league and Brendan is swinging his bollocks around like ****in King Kong. Turn it in pal. Why can't he just keep his head down, stay humble and concentrate on stringing some wins together. He doesn't help himself.
                    Thanks very much for being ‘This Mornings’ Farmer’

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                      "If you give me the tools"

                      Oh right. So what about the tens of millions you've spunked on Lovren, Lallana, Benteke etc?

                      Thanks very much for being ‘This Mornings’ Farmer’

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                        Imo if we loose to Everton there's a 2 week break due to International Football,i think they'll sack him and look to bring in a new manager

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                          He is just telling the truth that any manager given a group of very talented players can compete in the premier league.

                          All we need to do keep him happy is to sign Ronaldo, messi and neymar.
                          [B]Sir Isaac Newton knew the universal law of karma - any action has its equal and opposite reaction.[B]

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                            He's also blown his next job at somewhere just above mid table because if we haven't got the tools then they definitely haven't.

                            What their owners want is a manager who can compete with much smaller budgets, who can put competitive teams out that can take on much bigger teams and not look overawed.

                            They want someone who can make a team much greater than the sum of its parts not less as in Rodgers case.
                            [B]Sir Isaac Newton knew the universal law of karma - any action has its equal and opposite reaction.[B]

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                              Hemingway is great isn't he. Post more lad.

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                                I think the owners will stick with him until the next poor run of form.

                                Unless we get 4th and do well in the cups, would anyone trust him to spend money in the next two transfer windows?

                                People are getting very excited about the display shown against Aston Villa, but I wouldn't trust him to spend a single penny again. I'd prefer a strong DOF in place doing that, but Rodgers seems dead against the idea.

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