BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2012

[captainfog]

Wiggins is more of a physical achievement
Murray is more of a skill achievement

[Shaggy]

It's not like he's even come close to being world number one and it's plain that the only reason he's now as high as three is because Nadal has been injured.

I'd say world number two was pretty close to world number one.

Although that obviously wasn't this year.

That said, 3 is also quite close to 1.

[Leyton388]

Team of the year has too be the european Ryder cup team.

[ChesterDave]

The Team will be Team GB for the Olympics, surely.

[Neil Young]

I'd say world number two was pretty close to world number one.

Although that obviously wasn't this year.

That said, 3 is also quite close to 1.

So he made number 2. Once. Were injuries to Federer and Nadal involved by any chance?

And yes, it's close. But it's not number one. Wouldn't you agree there's a big difference between winning the league and coming second? Or were you not really bothered when we got "pretty close" to being champions in 2009?

It's close. But come on, it's all the difference, you know it is.

The thing is you can only compare the relative achievements across sports. And when you said Murray had had the better year, then I think the opposite is demonstrably true.

Obviously people can vote on whatever criteria they like but if you want to use facts...

Ok, I really must stop if only because it's time for bed.

[Kenneth]

Andy Murray celebrates his US Open victory.

[MrMichael]

Yeah, but cycling is ****.

(Not sure what smiley to use)

Surely

[Shaggy]

It's close.

We're making some headway - a few posts ago it's wasn't even close.

[Neil Young]

And, I repeat, it makes all the difference.

I'm not sure we're making headway at all. I fear I'm not and I know you're not.

My aim though is to provide a public service for those unaware of the scale and extent of Wiggins' achievements this year (like he didn't "just" win the Tour and the Olympics).

The only thing Wiggins doesn't have on his record that Murray has is that he hasn't blubbed in public. If that's more important than winning what can credibly claim to be the hardest sporting event in the world then "Go Andy! Go Andy! Go Andy!"

[Shaggy]

It's one of the hardest physically, no doubt, but physical prowess alone I don't find that impressive. Murray displays infinitely greater levels of skill. As Muzza himself said: ‘The one thing I would say with a sport like cycling is it’s purely physical, there’s very little skill involved in the Tour de France. It is the power, how many watts you’re producing, whereas with tennis you can’t learn the skill by taking a drug."

[Neil Young]

Hmm, you can't win the Tour de France clean by taking a drug either.

Of course it depends what qualities you choose to value. Yes, it's not a game so you don't need great hand/eye coordination but Murray is revealing his own ignorance there. It's not "purely physical" - to be a great road cyclist you need good technique and tactical ability as well as big lungs and powerful leg muscles.

And how about personal courage? When was the last time Blubber Murray risked his life on the professional tennis circuit? Crashing is inevitable in road racing and every now and then a professional dies. The last one I'm aware of was Wouter Weylandt who died in May last year at the Giro d'Italia. A freak accident on a dangerous descent, it could have happened to anyone. Wiggins rode that race, it could as easily have been him.

[Alex]

Neither of you are going to budge are you. Ever.

[Daniel 7]

To be fair Shaggy, careering down a mountain road with dozens of other riders as close as touching elbows at really high speeds takes no small amount of ability. Tight downhill bends and hairpins with that proximity is hugely impressive. The bravery needed and absolute trust in your own reactions is more than just physical. Its not deft I grant you, but it is a completely different skillset. And ballsy as well.

[Daniel 7]

Hmm, you can't win the Tour de France clean by taking a drug either.

Of course it depends what qualities you choose to value. Yes, it's not a game so you don't need great hand/eye coordination but Murray is revealing his own ignorance there. It's not "purely physical" - to be a great road cyclist you need good technique and tactical ability as well as big lungs and powerful leg muscles.

And how about personal courage? When was the last time Blubber Murray risked his life on the professional tennis circuit? Crashing is inevitable in road racing and every now and then a professional dies. The last one I'm aware of was Wouter Weylandt who died in May last year at the Giro d'Italia. A freak accident on a dangerous descent, it could have happened to anyone. Wiggins rode that race, it could as easily have been him.

Yeah but Murray's better. You're losing the argument when you start attacking the opposition

[Shaggy]