Kenny isn't what we need

[cream]

Exactly!

We aren't scoring enough goals. That's all it is.

And I didnt need Opta Joe's Zonal Index of Big Stats and Facts and Stuff to tell me that.

Call me an old romantic but I actually watched the game and came to that conclusion.

So that's where we've been going wrong? Bit simplistic don't you think. The rest of your post is spot on, I don't need to look at the stats to know Downing has been poor.

[Arn]

How many goals are scored on second chances, rebounds etc?

We don't exactly have that many players in the box so our chance to score that type easy goals isn't that big.

Kuyt is probably our best player when it comes down to scoring that type of goals but he isn't playing that often from the start. Maxi is another player that is good scoring that type of goals.

Carroll for example is very average doing it. He isn't mobile enough.

Man U score a lot more easy goals than us. Why? More players in the box is most probably the biggest reason.

If you have three or four players in the box then you will score a lot more easy goals.

[Lecter]

Your points is also based on if's, but's and maybe's. IF the striker had scored the sitter for example or if he had scored after Downing made the cross. Really no difference.

No mine is based on statistical evidence

You argue that we would win games IF we changed formation, changed players this is totally subjective and opinion based

My point is we are creating chances under the current system/tactics/team selection and missing far too many of those chances - that can be backed up by statistics to prove this

[Lecter]

How many goals are scored on second chances, rebounds etc?

We don't exactly have that many players in the box so our chance to score that type easy goals isn't that big.

Kuyt is probably our best player when it comes down to scoring that type of goals but he isn't playing that often from the start. Maxi is another player that is good scoring that type of goals.

Carroll for example is very average doing it. He isn't mobile enough.

Man U score a lot of easy goals than us. Why? More players in the box is most probably the biggest reason.

If you have three or four players in the box then you will score a lot more easy goals.

Again you are missing the point Arn

Look at Suarez's stats and the chances he is missing HIMSELF

ALL the forwards should be doing better in front of goal

Its crystal clear a lot of our problems are caused by the team as a whole wasting chances - not just Carroll

You have made excuse after excuse after excuse for Suarez, whilst heaping ALL the blame on Carroll

Suarez is as guilty as the next man in the side

United, City etc.. score more goals because they have a forwards who have conversion rates that are twice as good as our best striker

[Fredo]

I think Arn has got a very valid point. Suarez is already creating most of those chances so there might be an element of truth that he can't do it all and that may be the reason why he is missing chances. Kuyt is a similar type of player, creating a lot but his finishing is awry sometimes due to his general all round work. We can't just look at statistics in isolation.

[Arn]

Tomkins showed in an article a couple of years ago that we had five almost six players attacking the box the 08-09 season.

That was the biggest reason to why we scored a lot of goals.

We had the three second strikers plus the striker and one of the wing backs attacking the box. One of the CM, often Xabi stood a few yards outside the box. If one of the wing backs didn't made the final pass then very often both wing backs attacked the box or stood just outside it. The result? We scored a lot of easy tap ins.

Now we have very often one player in the box and two or three players just outside it.

Compare one to five or six. It is a big difference.

[Lecter]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DSLzsMXCAE"]Luis Suarez misses penalty v Sunderland - YouTube[/ame]

Andy Carroll should really be more mobile hes clearly affecting Suarez's finishing

[Fredo]

Oh come on Lecter, that's ****ing simplistic. Picking out probably the sole penalty Suarez took FFS.

[Arn]

I think Arn has got a very valid point. Suarez is already creating most of those chances so there might be an element of truth that he can't do it all and that may be the reason why he is missing chances. Kuyt is a similar type of player, creating a lot but his finishing is awry sometimes due to his general all round work. We can't just look at statistics in isolation.

If someone would ever suggest to me that a player isn't more tired if he himself need chase the ball a lot, then get past two or three players and after he done that get the chance to score compared to if other players did the first two parts then I would think that he is crazy. That is my opinion.

Yes Rush worked his socks off but he also got a lot better service from other excellent attacking players.

What type of service do Suarez get? Almost no service at all. He must almost always create the chance himself and then score the goals.

He get almost no help at all from players like Downing and Henderson. Compare Downing with Barnes. How many more goals would Suarez score if he play with a Barnes instead of a Downing?

[Neil Young]

Aye

The point I was making is that Arn's whole point is based solely on IF's, BUT's & Maybe's

Even against statistical evidence to the contrary his only answer is to refute that by a whole new raft of IF's

And before anyone takes Neils line the statistical evidence I've put in here has tended to disprove my own view that Downing has been shockingly ineffective

Your points is also based on if's, but's and maybe's. IF the striker had scored the sitter for example or if he had scored after Downing made the cross. Really no difference.

If you think that it doesn't matter what type of striker(s) the team play when it comes down to the number of crosses a player make then it is really laughable.

Barcelona for example don't make a lot of crosses. Why? They don't play with that type of striker. They made more crosses when Ibra played.

Man U don't make as many crosses because Berbatov is more or less not playing at all. It is better to pass the ball to Rooney or Hernandez because you get more out of them that way.

No mine is based on statistical evidence

You argue that we would win games IF we changed formation, changed players this is totally subjective and opinion based

My point is we are creating chances under the current system/tactics/team selection and missing far too many of those chances - that can be backed up by statistics to prove this

Actually my point is statistics are frail and the rest is all ifs, buts and maybes, speculations built on nothing more solid than a foundation of one part assumption to two parts guesswork, inflated way beyond its proper volume by the injection of gigalitres of hot air.

You guys need to lighten up: the club isn't in peril any more. Yeah, it'd be great if things were perfect but they'll never be. It'd be good if things were better and maybe they will improve and maybe they won't.

I don't see how arguing at such length on here about who's to blame and what needs to change can achieve anything constructive. Destructive, destabilising, yes (at the extreme), but it's not going to change things for the better so I don't see how it can be helpful, except to pass the time of day for us all of course.

N.B. Please note "at such length" - if people want to sound off then fine, what's the harm? It's the interminable, irresolvable in-fighting I'm talking about.

[Lecter]

I think Arn has got a very valid point. Suarez is already creating most of those chances so there might be an element of truth that he can't do it all and that may be the reason why he is missing chances. Kuyt is a similar type of player, creating a lot but his finishing is awry sometimes due to his general all round work. We can't just look at statistics in isolation.

Rush use to work his socks off for the team, it didnt stop him being able to finish when it matterred

Because he was CLINICAL. Suarez isnt

Hes missed chances others have created for him as well, how often have we seen a "relatively" easy chance for a player of his ability gone begging - the Stoke away game comes to mind and there was a couple of games recently WBA (away) and Norwich if I remember rightly when

Hes capable of brilliance and brilliant goals but his general finishing isnt great (to say the least)

I dont think it has anything to do with him creating chances etc.... thats just the way he is, its one of his flaws. He will miss easy chances yet score world class goals (like against Stoke)

[Lecter]

If someone would ever suggest to me that a player isn't more tired if he himself need chase the ball a lot, then get past two or three players and after he done that get the chance to score compared to if other players did the first two parts then I would think that he is crazy. That is my opinion.

Yes Rush worked his socks off but he also got a lot better service from other excellent attacking players.

What type of service do Suarez get? Almost no service at all. He must almost always create the chance himself and then score the goals.

He get almost no help at all from players like Downing and Henderson. Compare Downing with Barnes. How many more goals would Suarez score if he play with a Barnes instead of a Downing?

Rubbish

Hes getting chances and missing them

Yes he creates some of them but so did Fowler

It didnt stop him being clinical (whether self created or otherwise)

To suggest Suarez isnt getting chances created for him is ****ing madness

Hes a fantastic player but he clearly has a major weakness in front of goal, whether from chances hes worked himself or those given to him by his teammates

[cream]

Suarez contributes more to the team than anyone else, but there isn't a stat to show this. People should try watching the game a bit more.

[Fredo]

OK. Then Kenny would be making a mistake if Rush was the yardstick he's basing himself on. Again, you can't compare because the game has evolved and there's more going into it now.

Anyway, I'll head out of this discussion as it's going nowhere.

[Lecter]

Actually my point is statistics are frail and the rest is all ifs, buts and maybes, speculations built on nothing more solid than a foundation of one part assumption to two parts guesswork, inflated way beyond its proper volume by the injection of gigalitres of hot air.

You guys need to lighten up: the club isn't in peril any more. Yeah, it'd be great if things were perfect but they'll never be. It'd be good if things were better and maybe they will improve and maybe they won't.

I don't see how arguing at such length on here about who's to blame and what needs to change can achieve anything constructive. Destructive, destabilising, yes (at the extreme), but it's not going to change things for the better so I don't see how it can be helpful, except to pass the time of day for us all of course.

N.B. Please note "at such length" - if people want to sound off then fine, what's the harm? It's the interminable, irresolvable in-fighting I'm talking about.

I havent argued the club is in peril

I dont remember calling for the managers head, asking for changes in formation, team selection etc... (unlike someone else)

All I have stated is that the team isnt converting the chances that you would expect players (all of them) of their quality to be taking comfortably