Jordan Henderson

[The Birdman]

As other have said, for Henderson see Lucas.
He is 21 years old, in a maximum of 2-3 years time he will be a very good player for us.
His continuity of play is 2nd only to Lucas but he is one of the only players we have who get it, pass it quickly then move.
As for going AWOL does he ****, he played about 20 yards from me for the 2nd half against Everton at Wembley at left midfield and he didn't hide once, he always wanted the ball.

If fans/posters don't like him then that's fair enough but to state he goes AWOL or to say he is utter **** is complete bollocks

[danperkins]

As other have said, for Henderson see Lucas.
He is 21 years old, in a maximum of 2-3 years time he will be a very good player for us.
His continuity of play is 2nd only to Lucas but he is one of the only players we have who get it, pass it quickly then move.
As for going AWOL does he ****, he played about 20 yards from me for the 2nd half against Everton at Wembley at left midfield and he didn't hide once, he always wanted the ball.

If fans/posters don't like him then that's fair enough but to state he goes AWOL or to say he is utter **** is complete bollocks

He isn't **** but he is anonymous in so many games, anyone who has watched LFC play and denies this is either blinded beyond belief or is related to Jordan henderson.

So many people are quick to make the Henderson vs Lucas comparison, it is ridiculous. They are two completely different players, playing in two completely different positions & two completely different mentalities, coming from completely different footballing backgrounds & countries. Apart from them being played way too much at their age and having similar hair colour the comparison doesn't make sense.

Like many LFC fans i was not a lover of Lucas, he was played way too much & we suffered for that. To be fair to Rafa, he clearly saw something in Lucas's attributes and Lucas was completely changed from a box to box midfielder to an out and out defensive midfielder, it wasn't an easy transition but over time we have reaped the benefits of this & egg on many of our faces.

Lucas may have had a lot of faults in his game when he joined but he had that aggression, even if i was critic of his i never denied that. Given he gave away alot of silly free kicks, but he still had a bit of steel and heart, and that is non existent in Jordan Henderson IMO. At RM and CM he has looked far from promising, never mind the complete article. As a RM he shows a complete lack of any sort of production, and as a CM he doesn't have the presence,ability or the aggression to command such a vital position.

For me Henderson has good engine, ok technique and can be useful on the ball. He also doesn't get stuck in, wanders around aimlessly, has terrible production levels & you tend to forget he's even playing. Henderson & Downing mentality was always the issue for me, when we signed them.

Jordan Henderson: Played: 2478 mins || Goals: 1 || Assists 2
Stewart Downing: Played: 2332 mins || Goals:0 || Assists 2
Andy Carroll: Played: 1894 mins || Goals:4 || Assists 2

I'm sorry but that is absolutely pathetic, ffs Adam has gets lambasted on here (deservedly so alot of times) but people neglect to remember that he has been playing in an unnatural role and as a deep lying CM/DM which goes against every ability he has as a footballer. He cannot run,tackle and has awful positional sense, these are not good attributes to have for a guy playing in a DM role. From that position his stats are:

Charlie Adam: Played: 2167 mins || Goals:2 || Assists 11

Adam is only effective when he has zero defensive responsibly and are played close to the opposition goal and with Lucas out we suffered from Adam trying to play that DM role.

For players playing as high up the pitch as Downing,Henderson & Carroll the production level has to be there, and for the money i mean FFS!!. Sure that's why we bought them in the first place, to create and score!! There is no hiding how underwhelming their performances have been. I don't care if Henderson is young and learning, we paid massively for a player with premier league experience that was apparently had great delivery/got assists etc & we didn't get it!! Same goes for Downing. We needed to get the wide positions sorted asap, and we simply bought the wrong players.

We did not have the luxury of spunking that much money on players that "maybe will come good in next few years" , we need to improve and push on or else we will lose the real quality players like of Reina,Suarez,Agger. Players that actually have real quality & make the difference in the "now".

We simply cannot afford passengers, maybe a team gets away with one but when you have three,four and five, you end up paying for it like we have.

[Buzzo]

I think the similarity between him and Lucas is more that some people are looking beyond his current output to his potential as a footballer. The same lack of allowances hampered Lucas to the point he was actually booed at Anfield by his own. They are quite obviously different in footballing, sociall, birth place and I haven't seen anyone comparing them as footballers.

It is the stage of their careers and the potential for development where the similarities between them lie.

I agree with you on Charlie Adam, he has been a reasonably effective signing and criticism towards him is unjustified. We have certainly performed horribly since he became injured having performed slightly more consistently when he was available.

EDIT: Your posts are much better these days Dan but to say you were not a lover of Lucas is something of an understatement!!! I was on Koptalk when you used to post about him then You ****ing hated him.

[RedReet]

I think the similarity between him and Lucas is more that some people are looking beyond his current output to his potential as a footballer. The same lack of allowances hampered Lucas to the point he was actually booed at Anfield by his own. They are quite obviously different in footballing, sociall, birth place and I haven't seen anyone comparing them as footballers.

It is the stage of their careers and the potential for development where the similarities between them lie.

I agree with you on Charlie Adam, he has been a reasonably effective signing and criticism towards him is unjustified. We have certainly performed horribly since he became injured having performed slightly more consistently when he was available.

EDIT: Your posts are much better these days Dan but to say you were not a lover of Lucas is something of an understatement!!! I was on Koptalk when you used to post about him then You ****ing hated him.

His ''nemesis''.


Anyway, I think why people keep referring back to Lucas is because the type of criticism/abuse Henderson is receiving is almost identical to that of Lucas at that age and again like Lucas a lot of his best work goes completely unnoticed.

I don’t rate Henderson as highly as I rated Lucas, but I think he’s a good player and am willing to give him time.

[danperkins]

I think the similarity between him and Lucas is more that some people are looking beyond his current output to his potential as a footballer. The same lack of allowances hampered Lucas to the point he was actually booed at Anfield by his own. They are quite obviously different in footballing, sociall, birth place and I haven't seen anyone comparing them as footballers.

It is the stage of their careers and the potential for development where the similarities between them lie.

I agree with you on Charlie Adam, he has been a reasonably effective signing and criticism towards him is unjustified. We have certainly performed horribly since he became injured having performed slightly more consistently when he was available.

I do get the potential aspect mate, it's just the mentality for me with Henderson, i just can't see it.

Lucas i have no problem in admitting i got completely wrong. But Rafa bought him as a box to box, obviously looked as his attributes and decided to completely change his game and this worked. A DM position is perfect for Lucas short sharp passing, work horse and bullish in the tackle. I don't quite know how he was a box to box midfielder as a yougnster to be honest, but delighted he has developed the way he has for LFC as a DM.

As for Henderson, he was bought as a RM as far as i know. The whole stats approach, himself and Downing had good production levels from the wide areas, and production from wide areas was exactly what we were missing & of course we bought Carroll (aerial ability etc). Now clearly it hasn't quite worked for him at RM & now people are saying he should be a CM? He has certain qualities, but are they enough to be a good CM or a top CM for that matter? Given certain players like the Xavi's/Modrics who are blessed with talent, can get away without being too physical, but IMO if Henderson wants to play at CM for LFC in the premier league, he's gonna need to grow some balls and impact games.

For me, the biggest fear is whilst we are waiting and hoping players like Henderson & Carroll progress & likes of Downing improve, we just keep slipping down and down and this will cause our actual top players to leave Suarez/Reina/Agger. That is my fear & considering we've lost world class players every season for the last 3 years or so, this could very well happen

P.S. In Regards to Lucas i wasn't alone mate, and i never hated him as a person, but hated his constant inclusion in that first season when Alonso left, as we got exposed. As i said, i have no problems in saying i got that wrong like 99% percent of other LFC fans, even though Rafa changed his game to suit the his abilities and the league.

[The Birdman]

I'm sorry but stats can be used anyway you want to twist them.
For example there was one doing the rounds today on twitter about Downing, apparently he has created the most chances in the PL without assisting a goal (53) and has had the most shots on target without scoring (19).

Now, does that stat prove he is **** or does it prove that he has done exactly what we bought him for which was to create chances, it hasn't been his fault that we have been shocking in front of goal and do the 19 shots without a goal prove he is **** or does it say he is unlucky??

All I am saying is in my opinion Henderson will be a very good player for us, I stuck by Lucas because I could see things in his game and I'll be doing the same with Henderson.

[danperkins]

His ''nemesis''.


Anyway, I think why people keep referring back to Lucas is because the type of criticism/abuse Henderson is receiving is almost identical to that of Lucas at that age and again like Lucas a lot of his best work goes completely unnoticed.

I don’t rate Henderson as highly as I rated Lucas, but I think he’s a good player and am willing to give him time.

i think we both know i was taking the piss using the word nemesis

[The Birdman]

Dan,
Henderson is a centre midfielder, he may have played from the right with Sunderland now and again and he has for us this season and generally he's been poor in that position.
You keep going on about Henderson's mentality, do you mean the mentality he showed playing right back away to Blackburn for 70 odd minutes when we were down to 10 men when he was making 80 yard runs in the last 10 minutes to try and get us a winning goal.

I am telling you that Henderson and Carroll (for another one) are mentally very tough footballers. They may have played badly at times this season, we may have expected more but they don't hide.

The easy thing to do as a footballer is to hide, even more so at 1 nil down to your bitter local rivals in a cup semi final infront of 85,000 people at Wembley.
Neither Henderson or Carroll hid, they both showed, they both worked their bollocks off and they both always wanted the ball.

Your mentality angle is miles wide of the mark.

[danperkins]

I'm sorry but stats can be used anyway you want to twist them.
For example there was one doing the rounds today on twitter about Downing, apparently he has created the most chances in the PL without assisting a goal (53) and has had the most shots on target without scoring (19).

Now, does that stat prove he is **** or does it prove that he has done exactly what we bought him for which was to create chances, it hasn't been his fault that we have been shocking in front of goal and do the 19 shots without a goal prove he is **** or does it say he is unlucky??

All I am saying is in my opinion Henderson will be a very good player for us, I stuck by Lucas because I could see things in his game and I'll be doing the same with Henderson.

I not using stats to twist anything, i know stats can lie too, fortunately like many i have watched all the games and can see with my own eyes what has gone on, the stats merely compound it.

Downing has been atrocious mate come on? His end product? What end product?. He may get a cross in, but what type of cross? Usually it's a poxy ball or hits the first man. I think everyone that has watched Downing for LFC this season can vouch for that mate. There is nothing unlucky about Stewart Downing he has been exactly what he has been his whole career, and that is average.

As for Henderson, i recognise as i've said several times that he has certain abilities, but IMO i just don't see him being a top RM or CM for that matter. He is not technically good enough to get away with the lack of physicality aspect, and unlike Lucas he seems allergic to making tackles. In a CM position for me, that is asking for trouble.

I would have felt much better about the Henderson signing , if he hadn't of played so much. As for the Downing one, well that was just a shocker. And same with Andy Carroll although i thought he's be so much better.

[RedReet]

i think we both know i was taking the piss using the word nemesis

Ha ha, I don’t care, it’s ingrained on my mind permanently.

As for Henderson, he was bought as a RM as far as i know. Now clearly it hasn't quite worked for him at RM & now people are saying he should be a CM?

Genuine question, what is your problem with players adapting their game and proving more suitable in another position? You wanted rid of both Lucas and Kuyt because they were both ‘failed’ ‘CF’ and ‘box-to-box’ players. Well ‘failed’ in your eyes obviously. If Henderson was bought as a RM (which we don’t even know), what difference does it make if he’s actually better in the centre and understandably played there?

[danperkins]

Dan,
Henderson is a centre midfielder, he may have played from the right with Sunderland now and again and he has for us this season and generally he's been poor in that position.
You keep going on about Henderson's mentality, do you mean the mentality he showed playing right back away to Blackburn for 70 odd minutes when we were down to 10 men when he was making 80 yard runs in the last 10 minutes to try and get us a winning goal.

I am telling you that Henderson and Carroll (for another one) are mentally very tough footballers. They may have played badly at times this season, we may have expected more but they don't hide.

The easy thing to do as a footballer is to hide, even more so at 1 nil down to your bitter local rivals in a cup semi final infront of 85,000 people at Wembley.
Neither Henderson or Carroll hid, they both showed, they both worked their bollocks off and they both always wanted the ball.

Your mentality angle is miles wide of the mark.

Carroll has improved slightly, but he was bought to score goals mate, and he hasn't done that. That is the crux of it.

Kenny made comments when we bought Henderson, saying that even he still wasn't sure what Henderson's best position is. Sure if Kenny doesn't know i'm not quite sure how you are quite sure CM is his best posiiton? I mean no offence there btw

For the one or two games you picked out there mate, there is 20 that both have been extremely poor in. When any team buys a forward,attacking midfielder,winger etc what do they buy them for? Goals, to create and/or score goals. That is it, and the end of the day no matter how hard a striker is working he will be judged on how many goals he scores.

[danperkins]

Ha ha, I don’t care, it’s ingrained on my mind permanently.

fair enough

Genuine question, what is your problem with players adapting their game and proving more suitable in another position? You wanted rid of both Lucas and Kuyt because they were both ‘failed’ ‘CF’ and ‘box-to-box’ players. Well ‘failed’ in your eyes obviously. If Henderson was bought as a RM (which we don’t even know), what difference does it make if he’s actually better in the centre and understandably played there?

No problem whatsoever! Like i said Rafa spotted something nobody else did and kudos to him for that. Likewise with Kuyt, work rate down the channel. I have zero problems with that if it works.

I don't get what you're saying about Hendo though, we did buy him as a RM. I have zero problems with him being a RM or CB, the question for me is if he is good enough is those positions? At RM on the evidence i have seen he is not. And at CM on the evidence i have seen he is not. Others may agree whilst others may disagree, just my opinion on what i have seen of his performances.

The fact that he has played so much this season, has been to his and our detriment. Will he turn out to be a good player for us in the future? Maybe, maybe not. But IMO and it seems many others, it has been to our detriment that Henderson & Downing have got so much game time.

[Buzzo]

I do get the potential aspect mate, it's just the mentality for me with Henderson, i just can't see it.

Lucas i have no problem in admitting i got completely wrong. But Rafa bought him as a box to box, obviously looked as his attributes and decided to completely change his game and this worked. A DM position is perfect for Lucas short sharp passing, work horse and bullish in the tackle. I don't quite know how he was a box to box midfielder as a yougnster to be honest, but delighted he has developed the way he has for LFC as a DM.

As for Henderson, he was bought as a RM as far as i know. The whole stats approach, himself and Downing had good production levels from the wide areas, and production from wide areas was exactly what we were missing & of course we bought Carroll (aerial ability etc). Now clearly it hasn't quite worked for him at RM & now people are saying he should be a CM? He has certain qualities, but are they enough to be a good CM or a top CM for that matter? Given certain players like the Xavi's/Modrics who are blessed with talent, can get away without being too physical, but IMO if Henderson wants to play at CM for LFC in the premier league, he's gonna need to grow some balls and impact games.

For me, the biggest fear is whilst we are waiting and hoping players like Henderson & Carroll progress & likes of Downing improve, we just keep slipping down and down and this will cause our actual top players to leave Suarez/Reina/Agger. That is my fear & considering we've lost world class players every season for the last 3 years or so, this could very well happen

P.S. In Regards to Lucas i wasn't alone mate, and i never hated him as a person, but hated his constant inclusion in that first season when Alonso left, as we got exposed. As i said, i have no problems in saying i got that wrong like 99% percent of other LFC fans, even though Rafa changed his game to suit the his abilities and the league.

Good riposte. We shall see with Henderson I guess
I think the whole sabermetrics thing has been at the bottom of all this.

Basically they (DomCom, KD and FSG) have obviously thought.

Carroll + Statistically Accurate Crosser = Goal Frenzy.

Its real back of a fag packet stuff, and when you consider the money behind the transfers it has been a massive balls up. I agree with you on the fact that whilst Henderson may come good, we cannot afford to slip further behind whilst we find out Slip much further back and we will be looking at a relegation battle.

[Mattshark]

I'm sorry but stats can be used anyway you want to twist them.
For example there was one doing the rounds today on twitter about Downing, apparently he has created the most chances in the PL without assisting a goal (53) and has had the most shots on target without scoring (19).

Now, does that stat prove he is **** or does it prove that he has done exactly what we bought him for which was to create chances, it hasn't been his fault that we have been shocking in front of goal and do the 19 shots without a goal prove he is **** or does it say he is unlucky??

All I am saying is in my opinion Henderson will be a very good player for us, I stuck by Lucas because I could see things in his game and I'll be doing the same with Henderson.

No does it represent the quality of chance Downing creates, nor the lack of quality his shooting has shown nor does it account for his high chance creation to low conversion rate across his career.

[Mattshark]

Good riposte. We shall see with Henderson I guess
I think the whole sabermetrics thing has been at the bottom of all this.

Basically they (DomCom, KD and FSG) have obviously thought.

Carroll + Statistically Accurate Crosser = Goal Frenzy.

Its real back of a fag packet stuff, and when you consider the money behind the transfers it has been a massive balls up. I agree with you on the fact that whilst Henderson may come good, we cannot afford to slip further behind whilst we find out Slip much further back and we will be looking at a relegation battle.

That is basic far beyond what sabermetrics is. Sabermetrics involves a lot more than that (like some actual maths).

However that would explain our rather 1 dimensional attacking play.